Siphoning after the boil
Moderator: slothrob
Siphoning after the boil
I made my first extract recipe last night. i have made pre-kettled kits before with no problem. The boil went fine. I swiled the wort to collect the trub in the center. I cooled the wort in an ice bath within 30 mins. My question is how much to siphon. There was some clear liquid and some cloudy material in suspension in the center. I could not siphon just the clear wort. I tried swirling the wort again. Now things were out of control. I couldn't decide what to do at this point so I strained the wort through paper towels. Is this batch ruined? How much should you sipon out? How much volume is left behind? My OG is 1.038 when I expected 1.048. Can yuo help carify this. (no pun intended).
Post-Boil
Pipeman:
There are different schools of thought on how much trub to leave behind in the kettle--it boils down to personal preference. If you want to keep it in the kettle, then set your racking cane to just above the trub level. This will take some experimentation to find the best spot. You could use a clip to hold your cane in place in the same spot all the time. However, you'll normally leave some amount behind. The exact amount depends on your system and procedures. When planning future recipes, don't forget to include your system losses.
Is your batch ruined? You simply can't tell yet. Odds are probably not. Ride it out and see what the final product is like. Remember young beers, ie. immediately after fermentation, don't always taste right. Give it some aging time too.
As far as your gravity, we'll need to know your recipe, including target volume and gravity, and how much wort you boiled. I'm assuming you boiled some of the wort and topped the fermenter off with water. At first thought, it could be diluted. But it could also be an uncalibrated hydrometer. Or, possibly a hydrometer reading not corrected for temperature. Let us know.
v/r
Bill
There are different schools of thought on how much trub to leave behind in the kettle--it boils down to personal preference. If you want to keep it in the kettle, then set your racking cane to just above the trub level. This will take some experimentation to find the best spot. You could use a clip to hold your cane in place in the same spot all the time. However, you'll normally leave some amount behind. The exact amount depends on your system and procedures. When planning future recipes, don't forget to include your system losses.
Is your batch ruined? You simply can't tell yet. Odds are probably not. Ride it out and see what the final product is like. Remember young beers, ie. immediately after fermentation, don't always taste right. Give it some aging time too.
As far as your gravity, we'll need to know your recipe, including target volume and gravity, and how much wort you boiled. I'm assuming you boiled some of the wort and topped the fermenter off with water. At first thought, it could be diluted. But it could also be an uncalibrated hydrometer. Or, possibly a hydrometer reading not corrected for temperature. Let us know.
v/r
Bill
Recipe used
BillyBock: Thanks for the post.
I used
6.5 lbs light extract
.5 lbs crystal malt 20L
1 oz cascade pellets 60 min
1 oz cascade pellets 30 min
1 oz willamette Pellets 5 min
Irish moss
2.5 gallon boil. I topped up the rest with water. I think I had a little over 2 gals in the fermenter when I started adding water.
After siphoning into the fermenter, do you expect the wort to be cloudy?
I used
6.5 lbs light extract
.5 lbs crystal malt 20L
1 oz cascade pellets 60 min
1 oz cascade pellets 30 min
1 oz willamette Pellets 5 min
Irish moss
2.5 gallon boil. I topped up the rest with water. I think I had a little over 2 gals in the fermenter when I started adding water.
After siphoning into the fermenter, do you expect the wort to be cloudy?
What I Conclude
I'm assuming your final boil volume is 2.5 gals and that your hydrometer read true. I double checked the recipe, and you should get a gravity of 48 at 5 gals, like you thought.
Your loss in gravity is from the half gallon of wort left in the kettle. The derivation is below for the mathematicians in the audience.
Try using one of the those wide-mouth funnels with the built-in strainer from your local homebrew store. Then you'll be able to get all your wort in the fermenter and leave most of the junk behind. Either that or plan your brews to work around this: accept the lower gravity, accept lower volume to maintain proper gravity, add extra fermentables to the kettle to compensate, etc.
Also, since your gravity turned out lower, expect your level of perceived bitterness to be higher.
------------------------------------
One of the great brewing tools to use is the following formula (from Ray Daniels book, Designing Great Beers): volume * gravity = volume * gravity
You had enough extract to yield the proper gravity in a 5 gal batch. So:
5 gals * 48 points = 240 gal*points
The gravity of your final boil should have measured (in the pot):
240 gal*points/2.5 gals = 96
If you filled the fermenter to two gals and had 0.5 gal left in the kettle, then:
2 gals * 96 points = 192 gal*points (fermenter)
0.5 gals * 96 points = 48 gal *points (kettle)
But now you add 3 gals of water (gravity=1.000) to the 2 gals of wort in the fermenter, which dilutes it at 5 gals:
(2 gals * 96 points) + (3 gals * 0 points) = 192 gal*points / 5 gals = 38 points
Voila! The reading you had on the hydrometer.
What about the kettle loss? How much would that have brought your gravity up in 5 gals? Using the same rules:
.5 gals * 96 points = 48 gal*points / 5 gals = 9.6 points (or 10 points)
Voila again! There's your missing 10 gravity points.
v/r
Bill
Your loss in gravity is from the half gallon of wort left in the kettle. The derivation is below for the mathematicians in the audience.
Try using one of the those wide-mouth funnels with the built-in strainer from your local homebrew store. Then you'll be able to get all your wort in the fermenter and leave most of the junk behind. Either that or plan your brews to work around this: accept the lower gravity, accept lower volume to maintain proper gravity, add extra fermentables to the kettle to compensate, etc.
Also, since your gravity turned out lower, expect your level of perceived bitterness to be higher.
------------------------------------
One of the great brewing tools to use is the following formula (from Ray Daniels book, Designing Great Beers): volume * gravity = volume * gravity
You had enough extract to yield the proper gravity in a 5 gal batch. So:
5 gals * 48 points = 240 gal*points
The gravity of your final boil should have measured (in the pot):
240 gal*points/2.5 gals = 96
If you filled the fermenter to two gals and had 0.5 gal left in the kettle, then:
2 gals * 96 points = 192 gal*points (fermenter)
0.5 gals * 96 points = 48 gal *points (kettle)
But now you add 3 gals of water (gravity=1.000) to the 2 gals of wort in the fermenter, which dilutes it at 5 gals:
(2 gals * 96 points) + (3 gals * 0 points) = 192 gal*points / 5 gals = 38 points
Voila! The reading you had on the hydrometer.
What about the kettle loss? How much would that have brought your gravity up in 5 gals? Using the same rules:
.5 gals * 96 points = 48 gal*points / 5 gals = 9.6 points (or 10 points)
Voila again! There's your missing 10 gravity points.
v/r
Bill
Yeh!
When I switched to a larger boil kettle, I had the same 10 point loss. I had to think this one thru for awhile, and it turned out that due to the wider bottom I was losing more than I knew.
I poured it into the primary and after the fermentation slowed, off to the secondary leaving all the junk behind on the bottom.
Slightly more bitter, but turned out well anyway.
Right on billy
Steve
I poured it into the primary and after the fermentation slowed, off to the secondary leaving all the junk behind on the bottom.
Slightly more bitter, but turned out well anyway.
Right on billy
Steve
Makes Sense Now
I see it now. you got to keep the ratio the same. If I do a 50% boil, whatever volume I siphon off, I must only double.
I guess a 100% boil would make life easier.
I guess a 100% boil would make life easier.
leave behind????
why leave any of that sweet nectar behind? I'm a die hard, I drain every last bit of wort into my fermenter. Anything in suspension should drop out during primary and the rest during secondary. And Yes, your wort will probably be cloudy going into fermenter.
Don't do the paper towel thing again or I shall have to come and take that wort away from you. (joke)
Don't do the paper towel thing again or I shall have to come and take that wort away from you. (joke)
Learning !
I think I get it now.
When in doubt, siphon it out.
When in doubt, siphon it out.
Go Forth and Conquer
A full boil has it's complications too. You have to account for evaporation rate. So you might start with 6 gals and then boil it down to 5 gals to get the proper gravity. You could still end up with a diluted wort if you don't know your evap. rate. Heck, I'm still trying to nail my evap. rate down after using my propane burner for the last year--I'm getting close though.
A full boil on a stove top isn't advisable. They just don't have the oomph needed. When I did that on a gas stove, it took an hour just to get it to boil, then I had to boil another hour beyond that! That's why I got the propane burner...but then you're gonna get the bug to do bigger batches, 'cause everyone's liking your beer, and then you're gonna get the itch to go all grain.....it just never ends
A full boil on a stove top isn't advisable. They just don't have the oomph needed. When I did that on a gas stove, it took an hour just to get it to boil, then I had to boil another hour beyond that! That's why I got the propane burner...but then you're gonna get the bug to do bigger batches, 'cause everyone's liking your beer, and then you're gonna get the itch to go all grain.....it just never ends
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Dr Strangebrew
- Pale Ale
- Posts: 77
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 7:01 pm
- Location: Lincoln, NE, US
Welcome PipeMan
PipeMan, welcome to the hobby and site. I'm not sure what kind of experience you have brewing, but I really want to say something. I wouldn't worry so much about clarifying the wort as I would about sanitation, yeast selection, proper fermentation temperature...
By my way of thinking the most important thing in homebrewing is sanitation. Everything else plays second fiddle, if I could that last sentence would be boldfaced, italicized, underlined, and highlighted. All the hard work, planning, and recipe formulation, anticipation and probably sweat will be for not if your beer ends up infected.
My only infected batch was my first all-grain batch! The first few pints were awesome- I mean I had the perfect Irish Red. Perfectly balanced between malt and hops. I was eccstatic, then after about a week the beer started tasting worse than the post coital sweat from Ron Jeremy's buttocks. I discovered that I hadn't sanitized, or probably even cleaned the small end-tube coming off the in-valve of my keg. Sanitation is a must.
Fermentation temperature is another thing that is very important. Yeast will produce some very nasty tasting things if fermented at too high a temperature.
I could go on and on, but I guess what I'm trying to say is this. From my experience there are things that, to me, are for more important than worrying about how much trub I transfer to the fermenter. In fact IF I remember correctly there are reasons to have some of the trub in the fermenter. When I was extract brewing I just dumped the cooled wort into the fermenter. I didn't transfer all of it though, I stopped when what remained in the kettle was mostly hop residue. My beers turned out fine by my standards, although it took me two years to realize I need to watch my fermentation temperature more closely. During my first two years of home brewing I thought that I didn't like hop bitterness and hop flavor, as it turned out it was most likely not the hops that were objectionable, but rather an asundry of compounds that are produced by too high fermentation temps.
I suppose that really what I want to say is that time, and drinking, will tell you what you need to do to tweak your beers,e.g. trub removal, but remember things like sanitation, fermentation temp,and proper yeast selection are a neccessity for everything you make. The list goes on, but I think I've 'gone-on' long enough. Hope I helped.
Nate
By my way of thinking the most important thing in homebrewing is sanitation. Everything else plays second fiddle, if I could that last sentence would be boldfaced, italicized, underlined, and highlighted. All the hard work, planning, and recipe formulation, anticipation and probably sweat will be for not if your beer ends up infected.
My only infected batch was my first all-grain batch! The first few pints were awesome- I mean I had the perfect Irish Red. Perfectly balanced between malt and hops. I was eccstatic, then after about a week the beer started tasting worse than the post coital sweat from Ron Jeremy's buttocks. I discovered that I hadn't sanitized, or probably even cleaned the small end-tube coming off the in-valve of my keg. Sanitation is a must.
Fermentation temperature is another thing that is very important. Yeast will produce some very nasty tasting things if fermented at too high a temperature.
I could go on and on, but I guess what I'm trying to say is this. From my experience there are things that, to me, are for more important than worrying about how much trub I transfer to the fermenter. In fact IF I remember correctly there are reasons to have some of the trub in the fermenter. When I was extract brewing I just dumped the cooled wort into the fermenter. I didn't transfer all of it though, I stopped when what remained in the kettle was mostly hop residue. My beers turned out fine by my standards, although it took me two years to realize I need to watch my fermentation temperature more closely. During my first two years of home brewing I thought that I didn't like hop bitterness and hop flavor, as it turned out it was most likely not the hops that were objectionable, but rather an asundry of compounds that are produced by too high fermentation temps.
I suppose that really what I want to say is that time, and drinking, will tell you what you need to do to tweak your beers,e.g. trub removal, but remember things like sanitation, fermentation temp,and proper yeast selection are a neccessity for everything you make. The list goes on, but I think I've 'gone-on' long enough. Hope I helped.
Nate
Thanks for all of the support
I am very new to this hobby. It's great to have you guys around for support. Most of the books and info didn't say much except leave the trub behind. I understand the threat of contamination. That's why I felt panic. I can't relax until the wort is safely in the fermenter.
I am paying attention to the temperature during fementation. This batch is a pale ale. It's running at 72-74. Is this too high? What's room temperature defined at?
Again thanks to everyone for you advice. Your all a great resource.
I am paying attention to the temperature during fementation. This batch is a pale ale. It's running at 72-74. Is this too high? What's room temperature defined at?
Again thanks to everyone for you advice. Your all a great resource.
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Dr Strangebrew
- Pale Ale
- Posts: 77
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 7:01 pm
- Location: Lincoln, NE, US
Temperature depends on yeast
Without knowing specifically what strain of yeast from which company you are using it is hard to say for certain what temperature is correct, however 72-74 sounds about right. What strain from what company are you using? If you are using a dry ale yeast you are probably alright. I know that Wyeast and Whitelabs have the temps listed on their websites. Maybe if you have a yeast from somewhere else the temp will be on their site, or maybe on the package of yeast?
Cheers
Nate
Cheers
Nate
Yeast type
I am using Danstar Nottingham dry ale yeast. I looked at their site. They list 57 to 70 so I might be running a little high. It's reading 72 this morning.
future use
yeasts produce their own heat with the activity of fermentation. It is better to pitch the yeast when it is at the lower end of the temp range such as pitch an ale at 62 to 65 degrees. when the yeast activity raises the temp, it will still stay in the optimal levels. You will still make beer at higher levels, but it will have more flavors from the high temps. Some of these aren't bad, too much can be. Danstar Nottingham is a clean finish yeast, you shouldn't have too much problem.