BTP losses to trub & chiller

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BTP losses to trub & chiller

Postby Crusty » Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:09 pm

Hi guys.
I have been skipping between BTP & BeerSmith due to a water calculation error possibly on my part & can't seem to figure out how to calculate my trub loss in BTP.
When using BeerSmith, I have my Braumeister set up to leave behind 2.0lt after boiling & I lose 1.0lt to the fermenter. For a 20lt batch into fermenter, I get 19lt to bottle or keg. The software calculates this & for example, 28lt added to BM, boil for 90mins ( 6.0lt / hr boil off ) + 7.5lt of sparge giving me 35.5lt required for that 20lt batch.

Using BTP, I have set up an equipment profile for the BM with 2.0lt in the dead space column but for some reason the total water needed for the same recipe is only 33.0lt ( 28lt mash in + 5.0lt sparge )
The 2.0lt is sitting in limbo somewhere & is not calculated in either extra volume for mash in or sparge. Should it automatically calculate this amount or is this a manual input.
I know from past recipes that the volumes I get in Beersmith are quite accurate.
Can any of you shed some light on this.
Cheers,
Brian
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Re: BTP losses to trub & chiller

Postby slothrob » Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:58 pm

The volume that appears in the recipe window is volume in the kettle, so changing the dead volume in the equipment editor doesn't affect the volumes displayed or any of the calculations. To reduce the volume available to be drained from the kettle you need to make a "Volume Adjustment". That is done by going to the Volume tab, right-clicking to add a "New Adjustment", then entering the loss to the kettle (enter a negative number for the volume adjustment). Then, the Net Volume will be the volume after that additional kettle loss.

Alternately, you can set your Default Final Volume, in the recipe window, to the volume you want in the kettle after the boil. In your case, that would probably be the volume you want in the fermentor plus 2 L.
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Re: BTP losses to trub & chiller

Postby Crusty » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:23 pm

slothrob wrote:The volume that appears in the recipe window is volume in the kettle, so changing the dead volume in the equipment editor doesn't affect the volumes displayed or any of the calculations. To reduce the volume available to be drained from the kettle you need to make a "Volume Adjustment". That is done by going to the Volume tab, right-clicking to add a "New Adjustment", then entering the loss to the kettle (enter a negative number for the volume adjustment). Then, the Net Volume will be the volume after that additional kettle loss.

Alternately, you can set your Default Final Volume, in the recipe window, to the volume you want in the kettle after the boil. In your case, that would probably be the volume you want in the fermentor plus 2 L.


Thanks for the tip but I'm a bit brain dead at the moment.
Where is the volume tab? I just right click on the final volume in kettle @20deg & nowhere is it add a new adjustment.
Is it in the calculators tab?
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Re: BTP losses to trub & chiller

Postby Crusty » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:23 am

Ive figured out where the volume drop down is & the Net Volume will be as you said, the volume after that additional kettle loss.
If I want 20lt into my fermenter allowing 2lt for trub left behind in the BM, even after altering the volume adjustment, BTP still only wants me to add 28lt for mash in & 5lt for sparge. This volume I know for certain is incorrect & to get my proper volumes, I would need the same 28lt mash in but 7.5lt for sparge, this is allowing a 2lt loss for the trub.
I cant seem to get my head around why BTP is not telling me to add the extra volume because if I don't, I won't get 20lt into the fermenter.
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Re: BTP losses to trub & chiller

Postby jeff » Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:20 am

Hi Crusty. slothrob is right about accounting for volume losses post-boil in the volume adjustments area. But, the factor that I haven’t seen mentioned in this thread yet is malt water absorption. This has a significant effect on the remaining volume when the husks are removed using your Braumeister system. A typical constant used for malt water absorption is 1.0 L per kg of grain.

So, to answer your question I need to know how many kg of grain you are mashing and the volume and temperature of your strike.
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Re: BTP losses to trub & chiller

Postby slothrob » Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:05 am

Crusty wrote:I cant seem to get my head around why BTP is not telling me to add the extra volume because if I don't, I won't get 20lt into the fermenter.

What BTP should be telling you, at this point, is that 20 L in the kettle will give you 18 L in the fermentor.

I think what is confounding you is the idea that the BTP recipe window is focused on the kettle. The Kettle Volume and Final Volume are both volumes in the kettle (at the beginning and end of the boil), not the volume in the fermenter.

After making the Volume Adjustment of -2 L, you should see that a 20 L Final Volume in the kettle produces 18 L Net Volume in the fermentor. To correct for that, you need to increase your Final Volume in the kettle (to 22 L), until your Net Volume in the fermentor is 20 L. Since this is a known system loss that is common to every batch, you can use File>Make Default so that this correction is automatically included whenever you create a new recipe.
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Re: BTP losses to trub & chiller

Postby Crusty » Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:57 pm

Thanks heaps guys.
I've set the -2.0lt as default in the volume adjustment column & changed all recipes to 22.0lt, scaled of course & this leaves me with 20lt net volume which is what I want to drain from the kettle into the fermenter. The strike in volumes & sparge volumes now match up pretty much exactly to BeerSmith so I know the volumes will be correct. What was really throwing me out was the final volume @20deg column. I was assuming that the 20lt was the fermenter amount which I now know is incorrect. In BS, your batch volume or batch size is what you have left after all your losses are calculated in your water volumes. So for a 20lt batch, it's 20lt into the fermenter.
Thanks for helping me out, much appreciated.
Cheers
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Re: BTP losses to trub & chiller

Postby slothrob » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:51 am

I'm glad you got it set up right for you. Enjoy your new system and good luck brewing!
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Re: BTP losses to trub & chiller

Postby Crusty » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:02 pm

I changed one of my mill rollers from knurled to fluted but have suffered from efficiency problems ever since. I keep ending up with too much volume at the end of the boil with too low a gravity. I'm over sparging for some reason as well. My boil off rate was set too high as well compounding the problem. I have struggled on my last 6 brews to bring it inline but hopefully, my next brew with the knurled rollers & a more realistic boil off rate will see me hit my numbers. I am running with 75% efficiency. I have a 50L Braumeister with a short malt pipe so I can brew full batches or half & am now aiming for a final volume of 25L. I boil off 3.0L/hr, my grain absorption is more like 0.6 so I hope I get my numbers on my next brew day. I now understand that my Final Volume of 25L is inclusive of trub & it's not what's going into the fermenter. I have set my volume adjustment to -5.0L which will give me 20L into my fermenter. 1L of this will be lost to fermenter trub so I can fill a corny keg with 19L remaining. So I am concluding that the 5L from my 25L will consist of trub & my fermenter loss (4L+1L )

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Losses.PNG
Losses.PNG (8.17 KiB) Viewed 5617 times




If I brewed this & still got too much wort at too low a gravity, what steps would I need to correct. Final Volume? Volume adjustment?
Likewise, If I brewed this & got too high a gravity & missed my volumes, what would I need to correct.
Apologies for the somewhat silly questions but I'm getting there.
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Re: BTP losses to trub & chiller

Postby slothrob » Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:17 am

Crusty wrote:If I brewed this & still got too much wort at too low a gravity, what steps would I need to correct. Final Volume? Volume adjustment?
Likewise, If I brewed this & got too high a gravity & missed my volumes, what would I need to correct.
Apologies for the somewhat silly questions but I'm getting there.
Cheers

In both cases, you would change your final volume or evaporation rate, whichever is incorrect.

I would advise getting a dowel or measuring stick and using it to determine the volume before and after the boil. That way you can enter the actual values, instead of guessing. I use the formula: volume= height x (3.14 x radius x radius) if you measure in cm, the volume will be in mL, so you can divide by 1000 to get L. However, you can also add a liter of water, dip the stick, make a mark, add a liter, dip the stick, make a mark, etc. You can also use this to measure your volume before adding your flavor hops hops, to determine if you need to extend the boil to hit your volume.
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Re: BTP losses to trub & chiller

Postby Crusty » Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:59 am

Thanks again slothrob.
I think I'll be pretty close with these settings on my next brew day.
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