Mash in volumes

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Mash in volumes

Postby Crusty » Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:54 am

Hi brewers.
I have a question which has me a little baffled. When doing a mash in on my 50lt Braumeister & using the short malt pipe, I like to mash in with 30lt of water. Using another brewing programme, it tells me that I need to sparge with 7.08lt of water. Taking into account all my losses to trub, grain absorption & boil off etc, I should end up with 20lt into my fermenter & this is about the norm. BTP is giving me quite a different outcome. I have my volume adjustment set to -3.0lt which is my trub left behind in the BM after the boil. My batch size is set to 23.0lt giving me a 20lt net volume into my fermenter.
Why is it that no matter what sparge volume I add, the gravity of the kettle before the boil never changes nor does the final volume gravity. If I mashed in with that 30lt of water & sparged with 10.0lt instead of the 7.08lt, it's still the same gravity according to the software but obviously I now have more volume. I have my final volume locked at 23.0lt, could that be whats wrong?
What am I missing here guys?
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Re: Mash in volumes

Postby Crusty » Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:56 am

Ive had a bit more of a play around with sparge volumes & didnt realise my in vessel volume was changing. So, if my kettle volume is 32.96L @100deg estimated pre boil, should I be aiming for a sparge volume that gets me to that figure that will show in the in vessel column on the shedule tab page. It is telling me with my mash in volume of 30.0L, I need to sparge with 9.8L which gets me close @32.88L in the in vessel column. Is this the sparge volumes I need to be aiming for.
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Re: Mash in volumes

Postby slothrob » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:09 am

Crusty wrote:Ive had a bit more of a play around with sparge volumes & didnt realise my in vessel volume was changing. So, if my kettle volume is 32.96L @100deg estimated pre boil, should I be aiming for a sparge volume that gets me to that figure that will show in the in vessel column on the shedule tab page. It is telling me with my mash in volume of 30.0L, I need to sparge with 9.8L which gets me close @32.88L in the in vessel column. Is this the sparge volumes I need to be aiming for.

If you double-click on the sparge item in your mash schedule, then your sparge volume will automatically adjust so that you hit the kettle volume. You will get maximum efficiency from a batch sparge if your 2 runoff volumes are equal. This is pretty forgiving, though, and won't be affected much until they are off by 4-8 L. Also, thinner mashes will sometimes convert more efficiently, so it isn't such a clear-cut issue.

I tend to minimize my sparge volume, instead, to improve malt flavor at the expense of efficiency. So, what you are aiming for depends on your goals.

To your first question, your kettle gravities won't appear to be different in the software if you change your sparge volume, but have your mash efficiency set and your kettle volume and final volumes locked. You would need to increase your kettle volume to see a change in the kettle gravity. The easiest way to set these is to work backwards: set your desired Final Volume, add your evaporation rate and boil time, which will calculate your Kettle Volume. Now design your mash schedule, locking the sparge volume to the kettle volume, and the schedule will calculate the correct volumes to hit the Kettle Volume. Fine tune the volumes added to hit the ratio of runoff volumes you want. Fine tuning the recipe will cause the software to change the volumes slightly.
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Re: Mash in volumes

Postby Crusty » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:40 am

Thanks so much slothrob, you sir are a legend.
I'm brewing on a 50L Braumeister & can split my sparges in two.
When going into my batch sparge tab & locking it to kettle volume, it does work out my sparge volume.
So to make sure I have it all set right, I am aiming for 20L of wort into my fermenter & this is what I have set.
Mash in with 30L
90min mash
6.0L boil off per hour, so 9.0L lost to boil off
Volume adjustment set to -4.0L. This is what's left as trub when draining from the Braumeister to the fermenter
Batch sparge is @11.21L giving me 33.47L in the in vessel column & my expected kettle volume @100deg is 34.0L
Final volume @20deg is set to 24L
My net volume in the volume adjustment tab is 20.0L
Aplolgies for the Metric figures but have I got it right for a 20L batch of wort into my fermenter
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Re: Mash in volumes

Postby slothrob » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:13 pm

Crusty wrote:Thanks so much slothrob, you sir are a legend.
I'm brewing on a 50L Braumeister & can split my sparges in two.
When going into my batch sparge tab & locking it to kettle volume, it does work out my sparge volume.
So to make sure I have it all set right, I am aiming for 20L of wort into my fermenter & this is what I have set.
Mash in with 30L
90min mash
6.0L boil off per hour, so 9.0L lost to boil off
Volume adjustment set to -4.0L. This is what's left as trub when draining from the Braumeister to the fermenter
Batch sparge is @11.21L giving me 33.47L in the in vessel column & my expected kettle volume @100deg is 34.0L
Final volume @20deg is set to 24L
My net volume in the volume adjustment tab is 20.0L
Aplolgies for the Metric figures but have I got it right for a 20L batch of wort into my fermenter

That all looks reasonable (it looks like you are doing a 90 minute boil, correct?). If you tell me the weight of your grain bill, I can put it into BeerTools Pro to see that I get all the same volumes. However, those numbers appear realistic.

Don't worry about the metric. That's what I use all day, at work, so I jump back and forth between U.S. and metric units all the time.
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Re: Mash in volumes

Postby Crusty » Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:54 pm

For this American Premium Lager
OG 1048
FG 1012
4.67%
20.7 IBU

Grain bill weight 4Kg Pale Malt + 1Kg Rice
Mash in volume 32L ( 6.4L/Kg )
Boil off 9.0L ( 90min boil )
Final volume @20degC 24L
Volume adjustment -4.0L ( Trub in Braumeister after draining to fermenter )
Batch sparge volume 9.58L ( 33.48L in the in vessel column )
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Re: Mash in volumes

Postby slothrob » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:29 am

Crusty wrote:For this American Premium Lager
OG 1048
FG 1012
4.67%
20.7 IBU

Grain bill weight 4Kg Pale Malt + 1Kg Rice
Mash in volume 32L ( 6.4L/Kg )
Boil off 9.0L ( 90min boil )
Final volume @20degC 24L
Volume adjustment -4.0L ( Trub in Braumeister after draining to fermenter )
Batch sparge volume 9.58L ( 33.48L in the in vessel column )

I'm only getting ~5.5 L sparge volume, but if the Braumeister has a 4 L dead volume (as it appears to have from the 4 L trub volume after the boil), then ~9.5 L would make sense.
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Re: Mash in volumes

Postby Crusty » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:02 am

Your help is greatly appreciated slothrob.
I think the discrepancy may have been in my mash in editor. If I don't select a vessel to mash in & just select none, my figure precisely matches your sparge volume, 5.58L. So I have taken out the vessel option & selected none for all my recipes & the figures now match up to what BeerSmith is giving me. BTP is what I want to use so thanks again for helping me understand how to run the software correctly. I must have set up my equipment wrong so I'll have a look at that at a later stage but for now, the numbers match yours so off we go.
Cheers
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Re: Mash in volumes

Postby slothrob » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:59 pm

Crusty wrote:Your help is greatly appreciated slothrob.
I think the discrepancy may have been in my mash in editor. If I don't select a vessel to mash in & just select none, my figure precisely matches your sparge volume, 5.58L. So I have taken out the vessel option & selected none for all my recipes & the figures now match up to what BeerSmith is giving me. BTP is what I want to use so thanks again for helping me understand how to run the software correctly. I must have set up my equipment wrong so I'll have a look at that at a later stage but for now, the numbers match yours so off we go.
Cheers
The discrepancy might be my mash tun, which has very little dead volume. From the little I know about the Braumeister, I suppose that would too, since i believe you collect all the liquor that you add for the sparge. Good luck!
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Re: Mash in volumes

Postby Crusty » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:00 am

Trub left in the Braumeister, like any other system, can vary from brew to brew as the grist debris is not the same for all grains, they do vary somewhat. I've had as little as 2L left in the BM when draining to the fermenter but I've also had as much as 4L left behind. I do add whirlfloc @10mins left in the boil & the trub is quite compact. The figures I have set now match my figures in BeerSmith & I know that they're pretty spot on. I was using BeerSmith due to a computer crash & was using Linux for a while so had no choice. I'm back with Windows 7 Professional & back with BTP.
Thanks again for the advice, it's much appreciated.
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Re: Mash in volumes

Postby Crusty » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:20 pm

Can anyone post some screen shots of their brew recipe page along with schedule page, volume adjustment page etc.
I'm having trouble dialing the programme in & I'm not sure how to post screenshots. I brewed yesterday, a 24L final volume in kettle, -4.0L set in adjustment column tab ( kettle loss ) & 6.0L/hr boil off. I ended up with too much wort at too low a gravity. My boil off was more like 5.0L/hr. I mashed in with 32L of water, sparged with 5.6L. My net volume in the volume adjustment was 20.0L.
I need some help with some screenshots here if anyone would care to assist. It would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers
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Re: Mash in volumes

Postby Crusty » Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:35 pm

What I'm basically trying to say is if my Braumeister leaves behind 4.0L of trub when draining to my fermenter when i mash in i select my vessel which has 4.0L of loss. Do i set my final volume as 20.0L which is 20.0L net or do i go into volume adjustment tab & select -4.0l then set my final volume to 24.0L. So is the final volume inclusive of trub not going to fermenter. It says 20l but i would have 24l in there with the trub.
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Re: Mash in volumes

Postby jeff » Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:12 am

Hi Crusty,

I haven’t followed this thread in depth, but maybe it would help if I try to explain the difference between the various volumes used by BeerTools Pro.

In the main window at the top, there are Kettle Volume, Water Added or Topoff Volume, Evaporation loss, and Final Volume. A rough equation that represents their relationship is:

Kettle - Evap. + Topoff = Final

All these volumes are connected with the volume of wort that remains in the brewing kettle after brewing, but before transfer to the primary fermenter. In other words, Final Volume is the volume of wort including trub awaiting transfer.

Volume adjustments are applied from this point onward. If trub is left behind when transferring from the kettle to the fermenter, this is estimated with a volume adjustment. Same with transfers from primary to secondary and the yeast left behind.

An important thing to note is that the Final Volume and volume adjustments are vessel agnostic. They don’t take into account the dead space of the brewing kettle. If there is dead space that must be considered during transfer to the primary fermenter, this is included as a volume adjustment. Volume left in hoses and piping can be handled this way, too.

As for volumes in the mash schedule; these are all connected with arriving at the Kettle Volume. If the Total Runoff lock button is applied in one of the sparge steps, the schedule is tied to the recipe Kettle Volume.

The various volume calculations in the schedule consider vessel dead space as well as other vessel parameters. So, sparge total runoff takes into consideration grist water absorption, lauter tun dead space and sparge water added.

Hopefully some of the details above help clear up any confusion about the numbers estimated by BeerTools Pro.
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Re: Mash in volumes

Postby slothrob » Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:32 am

Crusty wrote:What I'm basically trying to say is if my Braumeister leaves behind 4.0L of trub when draining to my fermenter when i mash in i select my vessel which has 4.0L of loss. Do i set my final volume as 20.0L which is 20.0L net or do i go into volume adjustment tab & select -4.0l then set my final volume to 24.0L. So is the final volume inclusive of trub not going to fermenter. It says 20l but i would have 24l in there with the trub.

The Final Volume is the volume you want in the kettle at the end of the boil. If you want 20 L into the fermentor, and have 4 L loss to the kettle (unable to drain), set your Final Volume to 24 L. The volume adjustment is probably best used for transfer losses as they affect volume available for packaging. A -4 L volume adjustment would then give you 16 L for bottling/kegging.

If you have the actual volume you collected into the kettle, pre-boil, and the full volume in the kettle at the end of the boil, you can calculate your actual evaporation rate. This is crucial to hitting your desired Kettle Volume and gravity.
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Re: Mash in volumes

Postby slothrob » Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:47 am

slothrob wrote:
Crusty wrote:For this American Premium Lager
OG 1048
FG 1012
4.67%
20.7 IBU

Grain bill weight 4Kg Pale Malt + 1Kg Rice
Mash in volume 32L ( 6.4L/Kg )
Boil off 9.0L ( 90min boil )
Final volume @20degC 24L
Volume adjustment -4.0L ( Trub in Braumeister after draining to fermenter )
Batch sparge volume 9.58L ( 33.48L in the in vessel column )

I'm only getting ~5.5 L sparge volume, but if the Braumeister has a 4 L dead volume (as it appears to have from the 4 L trub volume after the boil), then ~9.5 L would make sense.
In reference to the concepts of kettle dead space and volume adjustments not affecting Kettle Volume, I should make clear that this difference would only be applied if the Braumeister was set as the mash vessel and that was set as having a 4 L dead volume. That volume would be added to the total water needed to hit the kettle volume, because it wouldn't normally make it out of the mash run and into the kettle.

In the case of the Braumeister, where the mash vessel is the kettle, and I assume you collect all the non-absorbed mash liquor, be sure you don't have a dead volume of 4 L set for your mash vessel. Otherwise, you will end up with 4 L too much in the kettle.
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