How to add apple juice as an ingredient???

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How to add apple juice as an ingredient???

Postby starsailor » Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:59 am

I want to add apple juice to my ingredients. I think it fits best as a liquid extract (or maybe an adjuct). I know the juice measures 1.048 for an OG and that filtered apple juice without any remaining pulp can be considered basically a water and sugar mixture. A full jug 1 gallon jug of the juice weights 9lbs 5oz and the empty jug weighs just over 4oz. So let's say the juice alone weights 9lbs.

How do I enter this as a BTP liquid extract? I've tried to enter it as an Original Extract of 48 oe and 99% water. When I add 45lbs (5gal) to a recipe with zero boil I get a computed OG of 1.432 in the Analysis tab. So this somehow isn't working.

Also when editing the new extract values is the % moisture a "by weight" value? I tried adjusting that value to account for the weight of the sugar in the juice. I.E. 9lbs of juice is 8.3lbs water => 92% moisture by weight. But that changing that doesn't bring the gravity anywhere close.

How should I add it to the ingredient db so when I add 5gal of the new extract to the recipe I get the OG of the juice itself?
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Re: How to add apple juice as an ingredient???

Postby jeff » Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:56 pm

starsailor wrote:How should I add it to the ingredient db so when I add 5gal of the new extract to the recipe I get the OG of the juice itself?

Good question. Apple juice is basically a really weak extract in my opinion. The potential gravity entered in the extract editor must equal one pound of juice in one gallon of wort, not the gravity of the juice itself.

First, we have to figure out the volume of 1 lb of juice. You said that 1 gal = 9.0625 lb so 1 lb of juice = 1 gal / 9.0625 lb = 0.11 gal.

To get the correct potential gravity value we dilute 0.11 gal of juice with 0.89 gal of water for a total of 1 gal. Using the BTP dilution calculator the resulting gravity is 1.0053 (note the 4 decimal places).

I was able to enter the following values in the extract editor to arrive at a potential gravity of 1.0053:
Dry basis = 100%
Moisture = 88.5%

The other values are irrelevant except for maybe color. You will have to experiment to see what color seems to produce the correct result. Probably something very low less that 1 °L.

I added 9.0625 lb of apple juice to a new recipe with a final volume of 1 gal and BTP calculates the original gravity to be 1.048. That matches your measurements.

Hope this helps.
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Postby starsailor » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:06 pm

Agreed that the apple juice is effectively a weak extract!

What I didn't get from either the extract editor interface or the help was the "one pound of juice in one gallon of wort" part. My error I guess was in thinking zero gallons of wort because I wasn't adding any water anywhere else. Now that you've gone through the process for me though it makes perfect sense in terms of "points per pound per gallon" that I've use for dry extract and grains before. So the extract editor requires you to think in terms of what does one pound of extract (or adjunct or grain), strong weak or otherwise, contribute to one gallon of combined wort when the one gallon is measured only after the extract (etc) is disolved in it.

I think a couple of examples like this in the help would go a long way toward explaining how the extract editor works and how sugar containing additives, either extract, adjunct, or grain contribute to the resulting wort gravity. Granted this is an extreme case at the limit of wort gravity computations, but it's often the examples at or near the limits that best demonstrate how some formula really works.

I'm going to go use the exact same number you worked out for me.

Thanks Jeff!
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Postby starsailor » Tue May 15, 2012 2:51 pm

Hi Jeff,

The technique for entering apple juice as an extract worked great. Now I'm stuck on a slight twist on this theme.

I want to add apple juice again as an adjunct and I'm running into trouble with how to come up with the numbers again. The same apple juice as before, but there are a whole lot more numbers to come up with (or dummy up) to get to enter it as an adjunct, like the course and fine grind dry basis (DBFG and DBCG).

Can you please help?

If you walk me thru that one like you did before I should be to figure out how to do it for any other juice etc.
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Apple juice as adjunct

Postby jeff » Wed May 16, 2012 6:38 am

starsailor wrote:Hi Jeff,

The technique for entering apple juice as an extract worked great. Now I'm stuck on a slight twist on this theme.

I want to add apple juice again as an adjunct and I'm running into trouble with how to come up with the numbers again. The same apple juice as before, but there are a whole lot more numbers to come up with (or dummy up) to get to enter it as an adjunct, like the course and fine grind dry basis (DBFG and DBCG).

Can you please help?

If you walk me thru that one like you did before I should be to figure out how to do it for any other juice etc.


Using 100% for DBFG and 88.5% for moisture should work. FG-CG should be 0%. Color can be whatever worked before. Protein and nitrogen are irrelevant. Most other values will set themselves being dependent on DBFG, FG-CG and moisture.
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Re: Apple juice as adjunct

Postby starsailor » Thu May 17, 2012 12:06 pm

jeff wrote:Using 100% for DBFG and 88.5% for moisture should work. FG-CG should be 0%. Color can be whatever worked before. Protein and nitrogen are irrelevant. Most other values will set themselves being dependent on DBFG, FG-CG and moisture.


Jeff,

Those number seem tp work OK, and I think I understand it now.

Another question though, if I may. Why is it that you can't add either an extract or an adjunct that doesn't require mashing to either the primary or secondary fermenter. I think you should and often need to make a recipe ferment correctly.
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Re: Apple juice as adjunct

Postby jeff » Sat May 19, 2012 9:36 am

starsailor wrote:Another question though, if I may. Why is it that you can't add either an extract or an adjunct that doesn't require mashing to either the primary or secondary fermenter. I think you should and often need to make a recipe ferment correctly.

I agree with this suggestion. However, adding fermentables after the wort is transferred to the fermenter requires that original gravity be presented differently.

Essentially, there are two original gravities when fermentables are added to fermenters. The first is measured after the end of the boil when the wort is chilled and topped off. The second is the "effective" original gravity that accounts for all fermentables and is used to calculate attenuation and related data.

Because this functionality requires some fundamental changes in the interface and calculations it must be reserved for the next major version release. Thanks for the feedback.
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Re: Apple juice as adjunct

Postby starsailor » Sat May 19, 2012 11:13 am

jeff wrote:I agree with this suggestion. However, adding fermentables after the wort is transferred to the fermenter requires that original gravity be presented differently.

Essentially, there are two original gravities when fermentables are added to fermenters. The first is measured after the end of the boil when the wort is chilled and topped off. The second is the "effective" original gravity that accounts for all fermentables and is used to calculate attenuation and related data.

Because this functionality requires some fundamental changes in the interface and calculations it must be reserved for the next major version release. Thanks for the feedback.


Jeff, thanks for the well considered explanation. Being a software engineer myself, I can understand and appreciate the impact of making process flow and UI changes. I do really hope and request that this can make into the next release feature list. In the mean time I can cope with problems associated with not being able to account for fermentables being added after the boil by misusing the adjucts and over using the notes fields.
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