Water chemistry tool ???'s

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Water chemistry tool ???'s

Postby river water brewing » Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:18 pm

in the water chemistry tool in Beer Tools does HDNS mean "Hardness"? if so my water report has a section for hardness but it refers to it as "CaC03" if i put this number in the HDNS field, what do i put in the HC03 section? i dont see a corresponding field on my water report.

and also what should i put in my "Totals" field? the amount of water in my mash tun? or what ends up in my kettle? or the total of all of my infusions, including sparge water?

i am just trying to break my habit of using the 5.2 additive and am also wondering about the additions that i would put in the "Water chemistry tool" do i add all of these to the mash tun or some to the kettle?

any help would be greatly appreciated!!
JG
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water calculator

Postby slothrob » Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:17 pm

BTP will calculate HDNS (yes, hardness) for you from your other numbers.

The number you want for HCO3 is going to be called HCO3 or Alkalinity as CaCO3 (or maybe just Alkalinity).

Totals would typically be all of your entire water volume, unless you only want to use salts to control the mash pH, then it would only be the volume of the mash infusion. If you set your base volume in the field above, the Total will be automatically filled in.

If you're adding salts to all your water, add the proportionate amount of salts to the mash tun and the kettle (or the sparge water, but it can be difficult to get some salts into solution, CaCO3 in particular). For example, if you used 8 gallons of water, with 5 into the mash and 3 for the sparge, you could add 5/8ths of the salts to the mash and 3/8ths to the kettle. Or you could just calculate for 5 gallons and add it to the mash to control pH.
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Thanks and follow up ?

Postby river water brewing » Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:38 pm

Thanks so much!! great info!!

here is a screen shot of my water report:

http://www.screencast.com/users/joshgib ... 82d9aba120

which of the 3 numbers would you put in the HCO3 field?

Thanks so much!!
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Postby slothrob » Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:59 pm

No problem, man.

I'd use the Alkalinity value. The other 2 values are definitely something different.

No Chloride value? Or is it just out of that screenshot?
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Chloride

Postby river water brewing » Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:14 pm

Yes, it is out of the screen shot the average number is 7 MG/L this is the Cl right?

I never did well in chemistry so while i am at it lets make sure i am right on all them

Ca++ is calcium
Mg++ is magnesium
Nat+ is sodium
So4-- is sulfuric acid, now my report just lists this as sulfate, thats ok right?

thanks again.
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Postby slothrob » Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:55 pm

You got it, except that SO4-- is Sulfate ions. H2SO4 is Sulfuric Acid.

It looks like you have pretty soft, slightly alkaline water. You could use more Calcium, but your water should be pretty good for Amber beers and adaptable for a lot of styles.
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Thanks, one more question

Postby river water brewing » Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:45 pm

Thanks slothrob!!!

so i added some acidulated malt (just messing around with the system) to my grain bill and it did not change the ph in my water chemistry window, do i need to do anything special to get it to register? i did not see a way to add grain in the water chemistry window.

Thanks as always!!!
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Still messin with it

Postby river water brewing » Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:42 pm

so the recipe i was messing with first was a saison with a 7.5 SRM i had a RA of 22.48 with no additions (well the acid malt but that did not effect that number of the ph number)

so just to see the effects another recipe would have i tried it on a stout with 36 srm, it came out to the exact same ph and RA can that be right?
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Postby slothrob » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:05 am

The RA is a function of your water and isn't affected by your recipe and the pH is the projected pH of an all-base malt mash.

You need to use another tool to determine the RA that your recipe needs to hit pH. One popular one is John Palmer's spreadsheet at the bottom of this page. I used that to generate this graph which I find to be quicker for getting the RA from SRM:
Image
With these tools, you need to consider the target RA to be +/- 30 and aim for the high end of the range if your SRM comes from mostly Crystal Malt, the low end if the color comes from mostly Roasted Malt and somewhere in the middle if it's a mix. (e.g., if your SRM is 7.5, your target RA is 0 +/- 30, or -30 to +30.)

Both of those methods will give you a pretty good quick and dirty estimate of the RA you need for a recipe, but you may find that you need to make corrections in the tun. It seems to work for me most of the time, but people seem to have more problems as recipes hit the extremes of the SRM ranges and when more extreme water salt additions are called for.

For the calculator that most accurately takes into account the acidity of Crystal and Roasted Malts, look at Kai Troester's spreadsheet here. The only problem with that spreadsheet is that it requires you to enter all of your water salt information to get a pH estimate.

For Acidulated Malt, one way to calculate the amount needed is to use this graph, also from Kai Troester. It will tell you how much of a pH shift you will get for a given percentage of Acidulated Malt at a given mash thickness. Kai's spreadsheet will also allow you to calculate the effect of different percentages of Acid Malt on pH.
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Thanks!!!

Postby river water brewing » Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:08 pm

Great info!! i love the excel sheet, thats just what i needed!!! you are the man!!
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Postby slothrob » Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:40 pm

Good luck with it!

If I haven't said it already, here's some unsolicited advice: Go easy on the salt additions at first. Try to get where you need to be with the least addition necessary. I've seen a few people go to town, trying to match water profiles from specific cities that were radically different than their own, only to be disappointed that their beer tastes "salty".

If you like the results you get from small additions, you can then try increasing the amounts on subsequent batches, if you're looking for more effect.
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i agree

Postby river water brewing » Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:55 am

i just got done listening to 3 hrs of the brew strong pod casts on water and John Palmer had the same advice, so i am mainly trying to hit the right RA and the same chloride and sulfur ratio that my target city has.

it seems like i can do this without over "seasoning" the beer.

Thanks as always!! you might have to send me your mailing address so i can send you a "thank you" i just finished some pretty tasty Belgians. oh and i never did that light American pils for my wife, i opted for a CAP, just did not want to risk ruining that much wort = )

can you PM me and i will give you my email address so you can get me your info (if you would like).

Josh
JG
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Postby jawbox » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:10 am

I love Kai's spreadsheet. He gave a pretty good seminar on efficiency at the NHC in MN the other week. All the seminars will be posted online at somepoint.

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Postby slothrob » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:50 am

I wish I could have seen Kai's talk. He's done some great work defining mash conditions and their effects on a homebrewing scale. His efficiency spreadsheet is really worth taking a look at, too, if you want to better understand conversion and extraction in your mash/lauter tun.
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Re: water calculator

Postby slothrob » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:06 pm

slothrob wrote:The number you want for HCO3 is going to be called HCO3 or Alkalinity as CaCO3 (or maybe just Alkalinity).

I was just re-reading John Palmer's How to Brew Chapter 15 and see that he says to get from Alkalinity as CaCO3 to [HCO3], you should divide alkalinity by 50 and multiply times 61 (or just multiply times 1.22.)

That shouldn't make a huge difference for you, though, just 57 instead of 47.
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