Wit beer

Grains, malts, hops, yeast, water and other ingredients used to brew. Recipe reviews and suggestions.

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Wit beer

Postby Freon12 » Fri Sep 06, 2002 4:39 am

I have read someone is gearing up for a wit beer. I also have just opened my package containing the seeds and orange peel.
I intend to make a wit beer based on the comments from this fourm including receipe and proceedure.

Who's In? While Mesa's away, the mice will play!

Steve
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wits end

Postby john_galt » Fri Sep 06, 2002 5:49 am

i just brewed a two wits.....using white lab's wit
and their platinum series wit II....the platinum series should still be available at your store
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Wity, happy, and wise(?)

Postby Gravity Thrills » Fri Sep 06, 2002 6:18 am

I'm in!
Here's my battle plan of the moment:

Batch Size: 6.5 gallons
Boil Volume: 8 gallons

Ingredients:
5 pounds German 2-row Pils
5 pounds Wheat (hard red) Flaked
0.5 pounds Acidulated Malt
0.5 pounds Oats Flaked

1 ounces Saaz boiled 60 min
0.5 ounces Saaz boiled 15 min
"handful" of wheat flour boiled 20 min (after Mosher).
.25 ounces Indian coriander boiled 15 min.
.25 ounces Saville orange peel boiled 15 min.
.25 ounces Indian coriander (2nd fermenter)

Yeast: Wyeast White

Projected Original Gravity: 1.048
Projected Final Gravity: 1.009
Projected Color: 3.37 SRM
Projected Bitterness: 19.1 IBU
Projected Alcohol: 5.04%

This is calculated at an 80% mash efficiency.

My 3 big questions:

1) Should I bother with the acidulated malt? I would love to nail that lactic flavor note, but i sit better to do it with this way or with lactic or phosphoric acid at packaging?

2) Should I worry about including a 20-min protein rest at 120F, or just do a single temp. infusion?

3) Mesa noted in another wit thread to "Place these spices/ingredients in the mash rather than the boil for much better aromatics and flavor retention." He's definitely the expert, but it seems like all the aromatics will be volotilized during the boil this way. What am I missing?

OK, I am ready to be educated. But, with Celis White now gone the way of the Dino, I need to take matters into my own hands!

Cheers,
JIm
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Mashing with Flavor/Aroma Adjuncts....

Postby Mesa Maltworks » Fri Sep 06, 2002 11:35 am

Jim;

Your query about the additions of the peels & seeds in the mash and the later loss of volatiles in the boil are exactly what I feared, but it initially was not with these ingredients, but with hops.

I learned the technique of mash hopping from a reknowned Weihenstephan brewmaster that produces one of the most revered line of Weitezens (both Hefe & Kristal). I then researched the "why does it work?" part of the equation after experimenting with his techniques.

It turns out that the combination of the lower temperatures for a longer length of time coupled with the lack of some enzymes and presence of others end up sort of "bonding" the flavor and aromatics in a way that when the boil commences, they are not volatized like you would expect. If anyone wants to read specifically about mash hopping techniques, post a query and I'll explain it, but for now, on to the adjuncts...

The biggest benefit is flavor... especially with peels, corriander and cardamom, cinnamon and even pumpkin. It seems that the real flavor of the ingredient is preserved much better. I assume that, in the case of the peels and the pumpkin, this is due to the lack of caramelization of the starches and sugars that invariably happens in the boil. If you boil peels anything longer than 10~15 minutes, the flavor characteristics start leaning more to a marmalade/jelly/preserves impression.

In the case of the seeds and spices, I think the benefit is derived because of the lack of over extraction and lack of tannin entrainment in the wort.

In both cases, the flavors and aromas derived using this method does, in my opinion, lead to a much smoother flavor and is as identifiable as the source ingredient's flavor.

I no longer add starch and fructose/sucrose (fruits/vegetables) containing adjuncts to the boil, but I do add a small (5~10%) amount of the total bill of seeds/herbs in the last 8~10 minutes of the boil for an extra aromatic kick.

Try it, I think you will like the results !

PS: Really try this with pumpkin brews... it won't end up tasting like you soaked a pumpkin pie or used canned pumpkin in your beer ! If anyone wants specific instructions on how to handle brewing with raw pumpkin, I can also outline the pre-prep steps that lead to great results.

Eric
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Wow - cool!

Postby Gravity Thrills » Fri Sep 06, 2002 11:55 am

I'm intrigued and certainly will try this. Thanks, Eric!

As far as the broader topic of mash hopping (a completely new concept to me), what types of beers would you use it for? I assume only the flavor and aroma components are liberated without a boil, but not bittering properties, correct?

While your eyeballs are on this thread, any advice on my deliberations as to use acidulated mash or to do a single temp instead of a step mash for the wit? My biggest concern is a stuck mash nightmare with that much unmalted wheat - time to break out the rice hulls.

Thanks much!
Jim
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Coriander

Postby Freon12 » Fri Sep 06, 2002 2:08 pm

I was hoping for at least 2oz. of coriander in the program and maybe somthing a little more spicer than Saaz. Also consider Belgian ale yeast?
I already have the perfect Weizen type water so this is good. I also would like to stay traditional like Curacao.
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oranges, poranges...

Postby Gravity Thrills » Fri Sep 06, 2002 3:06 pm

(If you grew up watching H.R. Puff N'Stuff, you'll recognize that subject line...)

Spice Guru Randy Mosher, by way of Jeff Sparrow's Zymergy article a couple months back, noted that Curacao oranges are actually an unripe strain of Caribbean orangs - the seville. He cautioned to steer clear of dried curacao's bought from brew shops because they lend an unpleasant, coarse bitterness to teh beer. I have no first-hand knowledge on this, but I finally located a Caribbean grocer that can get the fresh seville's so that's why it is included in the blueprints.

Again with no empiracal knowledge, my plan was to use Wyeast 394 (Belgian Witbier), because the text description of the fermentation profile (tart, slightly phenolic) seemed right for the job. Sounds comparable to White Labs Wit I, and more phenolic than the Wit II. I usually go with Wyeast because... well, I still like to SMACK THE PACK!

Cheers,
Jim
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Chipotle Peppers (Related Topic)

Postby BillyBock » Sat Sep 07, 2002 2:25 am

Mesa: Would the mashing technique work with the use of chipotle peppers? I'm crafting a Texas Brown Ale spiced with the chipotles to leave just a slight pepper hot bite and a nuance of the smokey aroma. I want to avoid dumping a pepper in the bottle for two reasons: (1) it seems these dark peppers will eventually color the beer black, and (2) it seems longer contact time increases the "hotness" of the beer--I'd like that component to be stable so it's just as hot 3 months from now as it is today. The first version of the recipe called for 3/4 oz (dry weight) of chipotle added to the boil with the bittering hops for a 5 gal batch.

Note: For those of you unaware, a chipotle pepper is a dried/smoked jalapeno pepper.

v/r
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Pepper Fruit Usage....

Postby Mesa Maltworks » Sat Sep 07, 2002 4:26 am

I personally have not made a beer using the fruit of pepper plants, but I am pretty certain that to get the subtleness of the chipolte flavor that you want, "mash peppering" would be the way to go.

I do have a resevation about the extraction of the capsican and other acids that provide the hot flavor derived from the fruit if you solely "mash peppered".

My recommendation would be to use 1 oz. in the mash for flavor/aroma and .25 oz. for flavor/aroma at the time of your bittering hop addition to the boil. This ought to give you the character you desire. Please let me know how this works for you because I may want to do something similar in the future.

PS: You'll note I jacked up the quantity of the chipolte above what you had planned to use in the boil. This is also what you do with hop bills. Since you are extracting very little harsh compounds from the adjunct additions when using this method, you can up the amounts which gives a better flavor impression.

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ready

Postby Freon12 » Sat Sep 07, 2002 9:53 am

O.K., I'LL use 934 and mash method with a small amount of peels and seeds in the boil(last part).
So.. about 2oz. each of Orange peel and coriander for the mash and 1oz. at 10min left in the boil?
I want to use the mash method with supply bought dried orange peels to see if the harshness goes away.
I have acidulated malt and lactic acid.
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Get to it!

Postby Gravity Thrills » Sat Sep 07, 2002 2:51 pm

Freon,

Based on Mesa's note in the pepper discussion about being able to double up the aroma ingredients in a mash addition, I think you might be ok with that level of spicing. I'm going to go with maybe 1/2 that I think, and up the levels the next time around if they come out too subdued.

(I had a bad experience early in my brewing career with spruce essence... "let's see, the recipe says use 1/2 ounce, but I'll really make something special and add 2 ounces..." I basically brewed Pine-sol! Since then, I have learned to start at the lower targets for exotic ingredients and scale up in later batches.)

Were you planning on using acidulated prior to this thread? Maybe mesa will chime in as to whether that is a sound approach. It sounds like you will be poised to strike before me - I have a pair of carboys bubbling in the fridge from last week's session. Tell us when brew day is and keep us informed as events unfold.

Happy (tr)Ales!
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Muchas Gracias

Postby BillyBock » Sat Sep 07, 2002 7:32 pm

Thanks, Mesa. You da man! It'll be a bit before I get my brewery operating again after the move. I'll keep y'all posted.
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Acid(sour) malt

Postby Freon12 » Sun Sep 08, 2002 11:59 am

I have "played" with this enough to want to use it in this beer. I think the lactic taste I'm after will come through a combination of things.

Post you later. Brew day probibly the 15th.
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Hoegarden...Coriander

Postby dartedplus » Sun Sep 08, 2002 5:23 pm

I tried a hoegarden and it was what got me back into brewing. I got a recipe from the WWW and tried it. It called for 2 oz. of coriander....way too much. Then about 2 months after that BYO had an article on The Belgian Style and along with the article had a recipe for Hoegarden white. I tried it and it was almost exact (Wilt's Wit II in the recipe files) only 1/8 oz coriander. Also what I did was to take the orange peel and the coriander, which I crushed with a mortar and pestle and made kind of a tea with it and allowed it to simmer for abotu 10 minutes at a very slow simmer. I then added this at the last 2 minutes of the boil (strained of course and maybe in a mesh bag) Like I said, I thought that it was almost perfect. So if you are looking for something like Hoegarden white, then that is a pretty good recipe.
so there is my 2 cents on the subject
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That's the ticket

Postby Gravity Thrills » Mon Sep 09, 2002 4:24 am

Yep, nailing Hoegarden or Celis White is the goal at this end. Thanks for the input and the pointer to your recipe!

NUNC EST BIBENDUM
(Now it's time to drink)
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