Temperature descrepancy in mash schedule

General discussion on BeerTools Pro Software.

Temperature descrepancy in mash schedule

Postby reddart » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:45 am

Here is a screen shot of a doppelbock I plan on brewing:
Image

It looks OK (doing an overnight mash), but one thing that doesn't look right is the batch sparge#2. It says I will have a temp of 169.8 from sparge #1, but I need to add 2.87 gallons of 157F water to raise the temp to 170.8F?
reddart
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:39 pm

Postby jawbox » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:22 am

Something doesn't look right there. You might want to recreate your batch sparge steps.
Why don't you do a mash out then sparge? Also, why is your batch sparge taking 50 mins?
PowerMac G4 933 Mhz, 1GB Ram, 17" Studio Display, Mac OSX 10.3.9
MacBook 2.16 Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo, 1GB Ram, Mac OSX 10.6.2
IMac 2.93 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 4GB Ram, Mac OSX 10.6.2
IPhone 5
IPad 2
I like macs ;)
User avatar
jawbox
Imperial Stout
Imperial Stout
 
Posts: 510
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:43 pm
Location: W. Dundee

RE descrepancy in mash schedule...

Postby wottaguy » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:25 pm

Why are you mashing overnight? With today's malts 60 to 90 minutes is plenty.
The longest sac rest I had to do was 1 hr 45 minutes, with all lager malt...boy was it stubborn to convert! Needless to say, I don't use that malt anymore and have found a better one to replace it.
According to your graphic your Sac rest is held for 9 hrs. You may want to revisit that.

(_)3
Visit my blog @ http://www.wottashomebrewblog.blogspot.com

On Tap:
HL Pale Ale
HL Lite Lager
Bottled:
HL Simcoe Pale Ale
HL Wizeguy Weizenbock
HL Reveur Saison
HL Dry Stout
HL Kentucky Common
User avatar
wottaguy
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:00 am
Location: Florida

Postby just-cj » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:08 pm

I don't know about you guys, but those temps also look all wrong to me. Look at the final temps:

After decoction, 161.2F
Adding 0.95 gallons brings it up to 169.8F
Adding 2.87 gallons (of 157F water! ) brings it UP to 170.8F?

I think that's what he's focusing on -- it doesn't make sense that the temp goes up when you add cooler water.

The method he uses is up to him -- the software should still do its job no matter what technique he uses!
iMac 20", 2.66 GHz Intel Core 2Duo, 4 GB Memory, OS 10.5.6, resolution 1680 x 1050.
Check out Baird Brewing
just-cj
Double IPA
Double IPA
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2001 7:36 pm
Location: Numazu, Japan

Postby reddart » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:29 pm

The decoction is a mash out, I always overnite mash, not for efficiency or conversion, but for convienince of spreading the brewday labor between 2 days (so 9 hrs is about right). I can't even remember the last time I didn't overnite mash :lol: The times in the batch sparge are arbitrary...it takes as long as it takes.

But cj hit the nail on the head...how does cooler water give a higher temp???

I will try and redo the schedule from scratch...maybe there is some leftover values that corrupt the schedule when changing things around...
reddart
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:39 pm

Final Temp

Postby slothrob » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:48 am

This is the one thing I've found that I really don't like about BTP.

This is really easy to recreate. Keep lowering your sparge temperature addition, and you'll hit a point (probably in the mid 150s) where the final temperature is higher than your water addition.

The reason for this is that, once the sparge starts in the schedule, Final Temperature represents the temperature of the wort collected in your kettle, not in your tun. The 170°F collected in the first runnings means the temperature in the tun is even higher. THe cooler water brings it down a bit, but apparently not enough to drop the temperature of all the water collected in the kettle by the end.

The big problem, as I see it, is that the program shows the temperature of the collected water, not of the grain bed. While this is an interesting piece of information, it's not nearly as important as the temperature of the grain bed.
BTP v2.0.* Windows XP
User avatar
slothrob
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 1768
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:36 pm
Location: Greater Boston

Postby jawbox » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:38 pm

which is why i would have expected the decoction mashout to get the mash bed to 168°F +/- and then just sparge with 168°F water. At least that's the way I handle my batch sparges when using a mashout. I use an infusion to get to my mashout (grain bed) temp and then sparge with 165-168°F water.
PowerMac G4 933 Mhz, 1GB Ram, 17" Studio Display, Mac OSX 10.3.9
MacBook 2.16 Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo, 1GB Ram, Mac OSX 10.6.2
IMac 2.93 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 4GB Ram, Mac OSX 10.6.2
IPhone 5
IPad 2
I like macs ;)
User avatar
jawbox
Imperial Stout
Imperial Stout
 
Posts: 510
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:43 pm
Location: W. Dundee

Postby jawbox » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:48 pm

Sloth,

I think showing you the collected temp makes sense, as the program bases the volume collected on the temp of the wort. Remember that the volume collected never matches the preboil volume due to the fact that the wort volume increases at boiling temp.

I would imagine if you were concerned about the mash bed temp that you would utilize a mashout step that would get you to the desired temperature range.

Now I want another calculator in the tools. One that allows you to double check your volume based on the actual temp of the collected wort against the recipe. I know the temp of my collected wort is always are a little lower than predicted.

Jaw
PowerMac G4 933 Mhz, 1GB Ram, 17" Studio Display, Mac OSX 10.3.9
MacBook 2.16 Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo, 1GB Ram, Mac OSX 10.6.2
IMac 2.93 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 4GB Ram, Mac OSX 10.6.2
IPhone 5
IPad 2
I like macs ;)
User avatar
jawbox
Imperial Stout
Imperial Stout
 
Posts: 510
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:43 pm
Location: W. Dundee

Postby reddart » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:57 am

OK, I opened up the individual steps and found one of those "wrench in yellow triangle" warnings...clicked on it, and now it looks better....




Image
reddart
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:39 pm

Postby jawbox » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:26 am

red,

If you are doing a true batch sparge I would reduce the time of your sparges closer to 10 mins. It might affect the collected wort temp. Unless your sparges actually take that long, although I don't see any benefit as all the sugar should already be in solution. I'd also be concerned about sparging with such high temp water due to the risk of extracting tannins from the husks.

Just my 2 cents.

Jaw
PowerMac G4 933 Mhz, 1GB Ram, 17" Studio Display, Mac OSX 10.3.9
MacBook 2.16 Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo, 1GB Ram, Mac OSX 10.6.2
IMac 2.93 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 4GB Ram, Mac OSX 10.6.2
IPhone 5
IPad 2
I like macs ;)
User avatar
jawbox
Imperial Stout
Imperial Stout
 
Posts: 510
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:43 pm
Location: W. Dundee

Re: Final Temp

Postby jeff » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:04 pm

slothrob wrote:The big problem, as I see it, is that the program shows the temperature of the collected water, not of the grain bed. While this is an interesting piece of information, it's not nearly as important as the temperature of the grain bed.


Noted. Everyone agree?
Jeff
BeerTools.com Staff
User avatar
jeff
Imperial Stout
Imperial Stout
 
Posts: 1410
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2000 9:16 pm
Location: Hollywood, SC

Postby Bobby_M » Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:15 pm

I didn't catch this thread when it was active but I want to chime in to say that I agree. I know that the trick to finding out what the grainbed temp will be is to set collection vessel to "none" but I think it needs to be clear what temp it is actually talking about. Obviously the temp of the collected wort would play into the heating timeline as to when the boil will start etc, but I don't anyone that micromanages their timeline like that. I want to know what kind of sparge infusion will get me to my 169F equalized temp.
Bobby_M on Homebrewtalk.com
HP DV9200 Laptop, Intel T5500, 2 Gig RAM, Windows Vista, 17" widescreen display at 1440 x 900 and 32 colors.

my youtube vids: www.youtube.com/bobbyfromnj
Bobby_M
Light Lager
Light Lager
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:14 pm

old thread but I have a question

Postby conman » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:56 am

I have been using BTP for a couple of years now and I do really like it. but, I do have an issue that I just cant seem to figure out, why do the temps for strike water in the mash schedule editor differ from the mashin/strike calculator in the calculators utility. I have always had a 3 or 4 degree difference from one to the other and the Mashin editor in the schedule is always the low one.
I have adjusted just about every thing I can think of but the outcome is always the same.

also the Calculator in the calc. utility is always right, not the schedule mashin/strike temp. if this has been answered somewhere else on this forum, Sorry for asking.
Homebrewing since 1998!
conman
Pale Ale
Pale Ale
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:05 pm

Re: old thread but I have a question

Postby jeff » Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:19 pm

conman wrote:I have been using BTP for a couple of years now and I do really like it. but, I do have an issue that I just cant seem to figure out, why do the temps for strike water in the mash schedule editor differ from the mashin/strike calculator in the calculators utility. I have always had a 3 or 4 degree difference from one to the other and the Mashin editor in the schedule is always the low one.
I have adjusted just about every thing I can think of but the outcome is always the same.

also the Calculator in the calc. utility is always right, not the schedule mashin/strike temp. if this has been answered somewhere else on this forum, Sorry for asking.


Couple questions: 1) Do you have the "Heat Water In Mash Vessel" option selected in the calculator? 2) Do you have the same vessel selected for both the mash and heating in the mash-in step?
Jeff
BeerTools.com Staff
User avatar
jeff
Imperial Stout
Imperial Stout
 
Posts: 1410
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2000 9:16 pm
Location: Hollywood, SC

Re: old thread but I have a question

Postby conman » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:32 pm

jeff wrote:
conman wrote:I have been using BTP for a couple of years now and I do really like it. but, I do have an issue that I just cant seem to figure out, why do the temps for strike water in the mash schedule editor differ from the mashin/strike calculator in the calculators utility. I have always had a 3 or 4 degree difference from one to the other and the Mashin editor in the schedule is always the low one.
I have adjusted just about every thing I can think of but the outcome is always the same.

also the Calculator in the calc. utility is always right, not the schedule mashin/strike temp. if this has been answered somewhere else on this forum, Sorry for asking.


Couple questions: 1) Do you have the "Heat Water In Mash Vessel" option selected in the calculator? 2) Do you have the same vessel selected for both the mash and heating in the mash-in step?




I guess I should tell you my setup. I have an electric turkey fryer as a HLT, a 7 gallon igloo cooler as a mash tun and a 7 gallon stainless brew pot. I heat the strike water in the HLT, then add the required amount of the correct temp water to the tun, then add the grain and stir. I cant heat in the mash tun and I only occasionally do step mashes by adding hot water. I just checked and I didnt have it either checked. but I adjusted the Heat Capacity down to 0 degrees and now the temps are the same. what is the program figuring with the heat capacity?
Homebrewing since 1998!
conman
Pale Ale
Pale Ale
 
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:05 pm

Next

Return to BeerTools Pro General Topics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron