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Printout is still not working correctly

Postby billvelek » Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:58 am

Everything I said in my post on January 20th, immediately above, still applies here except that it is happening now with version 1.5.10b. Similarly to my January post, I just did another triple partigyle, but I can't imagine that this has anything to do with it because BTP wouldn't have a way to know it is a partigyle, and I seemed to recall that it happened with a regular batch, too. The only way that my triples are different is that I sometimes add a third batch sparge due to the amount of grain in my tun (25 pounds this time). In any event, let me explain the circumstances.

Because I use the partigyle recipes as a 'base', the ingredient list is shorter than usual because I also create smaller recipes which include the hop schedule; so in this case, I had only three ingredients plus a very simple mash schedule as follows:
Mash In
Saccarification Rest
Batch Sparge
-- First Runnings
-- Batch Sparge 1
-- Batch Sparge 2
-- Batch Sparge 3

The 'Ingredients' section on the printout contains three lines of text (in addition to the section 'header'), and the 'Schedule' section 'prints' 20.5 lines of text, including the Ambient Air, Souce Water, and Elevation. I say 20.5 lines of text because line 20 is "Batch Sparge 2" and in line 21, only the top half of the text prints, and I can see that it was going to be "Volume: 5.0 gal". Then, when I turn to page 2, BTP prints the graph for my mash schedule and doesn't bother to print the remaining text from the 'Schedule' section.

Okay, I just went back and modified my recipe to reduce the batch sparges down to 2 (three runnings -- first runnings, sparge 1, and sparge 2) -- and the printout looks the same, so the length of the sparge schedule doesn't seem to have anything to do with it.

I just changed my recipe to add some bogus ingredients to see if the length of the ingredient list matters; it now prints 9 lines of text in the 'Ingredients' section, and 14.5 lines of text in the 'Schedule' section. I hope my extra effort helps you to find the problem.

I can't imagine that this is a printer issue, because I've used the printer for years and don't have problems with other programs.

Cheers.

Bill Velek
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Re: Printout is still not working correctly

Postby jeff » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:02 pm

billvelek wrote:I hope my extra effort helps you to find the problem.


Thanks for posting your observations, Bill. Anybody else experiencing print-out issues?
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Jeff, some more info to help your diagnosis

Postby billvelek » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:27 pm

I decided to tape some paper together to make it longer and see how the recipe prints. I made several attempts with different results which might give you some insight into the problem.

My mash schedule remains the same for all of them, and the 'Schedule' section, below the section header, consists of the following lines:

Line Space
Ambient Air
Source Water
Elevation
Line Space
Mash In
-Liquor:
-Strike:
-Target:
Saccarification
-Rest
-Final
Batch Sparge
-First Runnings
-- Volume
-- Temperature
-- Duration
-Batch Sparge 1
-- Volume
-- Temperature
-- Duration
- Batch Sparge 2
-- Volume
-- Temperature
-- Duration
- Batch Sparge 3
-- Volume
-- Temperature
-- Duration
That is a total of 29 lines, including the two blank line (line spaces)

All that was varied in each printing was the number of ingredients.

1. With two ingredients, the first page was truncated midway down the Temperature line for Batch Sparge 2; just the top half of the line printed, and the second page went straight to the graph.

2. With five ingredients, the first page was truncated midway down the Duration line for Batch Sparge 1; second page went straight to graph.

3. With ten ingredients, the first page printed the entire 'Target' line below the Mash-In; second page straight to graph. This struck me as odd since there is no 'line space' there and previous printings show the upper portion of the last line printed.

4. With 13 ingredients, the first page ends with the entire 'Elevation' line printed, but nothing else, and the second page goes straight to the graph; this also struck me as odd because there is still plenty of remaining space at the bottom of page 1 to have printed at least a few lines of the mash schedule.

I then changed the setting to 'legal size' paper and increased ingredients to 16; the entire 'Schedule' printed on page 1, and the graph started on page 2 as it should.

Incidentally, Jeff, while going through this process, I noticed that when I changed the number of ingredients, the number shown in the drop down menu remains at 'two' -- one fermentable/grain and one hop, even though I have selected as many as 15 different hops. I've never noticed that before, but think it is not correct. Here is a screen shot to show you what I mean:
http://home.alltel.net/billvelek/ingredients.JPG

That is after 'saving' the file, too. Hope this is of some help to you.

Cheers.

Bill Velek
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Re: Jeff, some more info to help your diagnosis

Postby jeff » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:33 pm

billvelek wrote:Hope this is of some help to you.


Thanks Bill, it will help me diagnose the problem. Thanks for your time :)
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Re: Jeff, some more info to help your diagnosis

Postby ColoradoBrewer » Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:48 am

billvelek wrote:Incidentally, Jeff, while going through this process, I noticed that when I changed the number of ingredients, the number shown in the drop down menu remains at 'two' -- one fermentable/grain and one hop, even though I have selected as many as 15 different hops. I've never noticed that before, but think it is not correct...[Bill Velek
Thanks for bringing that up, Bill. I've intended to mention this several times and have always forgotten. I've noticed the same thing. At some point it will update, but I'm not sure what triggers it because sometimes it will update during the session and at other times it might not update until BTP has been shut down and opened again.
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I think I found a new bug ...

Postby billvelek » Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:00 am

While trying to design an Oktoberfest, I added "Dextrine Malt" -- which I assumed was basically unfermentable -- and noted that changing the amount changes the alcohol percent. Okay, I don't know anything about that 'malt', so I figured I was wrong and replaced it with "Malto Dextrin", which even BTP says "Does not ferment" ... but the same thing happens, i.e., as I change the amount the percentage of alcohol changes. Admittedly, it says "For all extract beers" and I am designing an all-grain, but that shouldn't make any difference, right? So now I'm in a rush to try to put together a recipe so I can brew in the next few days, so all I can think to do is to 'uncheck' the dextrine while checking the alcohol content, and then checking it while I'm working on the mash schedule for purposes of water additions.

By the way, will the dextrine change my O.G. and F.G. readings; I presume that they will, and that the predicted O.G. will probably be correct but the F.G. will be incorrect because BTP thinks the yeast is attenuating that portion of the brew.

Any help and advice will be appreciated. Thanks.

Bill Velek
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Oktoberfest

Postby slothrob » Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:34 am

I'm going to have to defer to the experts on this one. I've talked to a lot of brewers getting ready for my first run of lagers this fall and have a pretty good idea of how to formulate an Oktoberfest, but I don't have the experience with a particular recipe that you're looking for.

There's Jamil and John Palmer's Style book, that probably has one of Jamil's award winning recipes. Also, this thread has some good looking recipes from a couple of brewer's who's recipe skills I've witnessed with other beers. Kenlenard and Mtnbrewer are reliable, and Mtnbrewer's recipe looks interesting.

My thoughts are, when evaluating recipes, that you're looking for a beer that has an OG in the mid to high 50's, IBUs in the mid to high 20's. The grain bill should be about 50-60% Munich Malt (I'd make a pound of that Dark Munich to duplicate the effects of decoction), and 40-50% Pilsner. You need to keep the Crystal Malt low to keep it from being too sweet with all that Munich, a little Caramunich would probably be okay, but I'd keep it below 0.5#; less than 0.25# would probably be better. I think I'd go with Melanoidin instead of Crystal, if I needed to add something to get the right color, but I like my Oktoberfests on the drier side. Any Germanic hop should work well, even Mt. Hood or Sterling, since the hop flavor should be subtle.

From other pseudo-lagers I've done, I'd go with WY1007 if I was going to use an ale yeast if I could ferment it close to 60°F, but you may need to cold crash it to clear it. The steam yeast would be another option.
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My initial Oktoberfest ingredients ...

Postby billvelek » Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:33 am

I did quite a bit of surfing last night searching for something that sounded about right; see, ... I told you I wasn't just being lazy. :mrgreen: I also looked for some common ingredients, and of course used BTP to keep me within style guidelines. This is what I have tentatively come up with for a 4.5 gallon batch:

On this first screen shot, I have all of my ingredients selected, including the Cara-Pils which I understand is the same as 'Dextrine Malt' and should not affect the alcohol; note the level of alcohol and then see how it drops when the Cara-Pils is unselected in the second screen shot, where everything seems to come into line except the terminal gravity, which is going to be higher than shown due to the Cara-Pils. This is why I said I think that this is a new bug. Clicking and unclicking the Cara-Pils is not a problem, but I'm not sure if I need to do anything with my 'Attenuation' setting. Jeff??

Image

... and now this second shot ...

Image

Slothrob, I did see some recipes with Germans Pils in place of the Vienna, so I could go that way, too. Dark Munich would make this recipe too dark. Let know what you think. I haven't made the yeast selection yet, but remember that this will be an 'ale' rather than a 'lager', so I am thinking of using California Common and ferment as low I can keep it with some occasional ice additions to a tub of water.

Thanks.

Bill Velek
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Dextrine Malt

Postby slothrob » Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:07 pm

Sorry, I guess I posted that Oktoberfest business in the wrong thread... All Munich and no Pilsner seems like it would make more of a Bock than an Oktoberfest (edit: that's a bit of an exageration, I've had a nice Vienna Lager that was all Vienna Malt), but it would probably be a nice beer. A small % of Dark Munich would be to bump the color if Pils Malt was used for half the grain bill. I'm not sure the aroma malts are appropriate for an Oktoberfest.

Dextrin malt will increase your OG and your FG. So unchecking it will lower your OG. BTP doesn't make any attempt to guess at your attenuation, though. You need to change the % attenuation setting until you get the alcohol % you expect.
Last edited by slothrob on Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Schedule printing

Postby jeff » Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:12 pm

Version 1.5.11 of the beta addresses some of the printing issues. If problems persist, please let me know.

Thanks!
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Re: Jeff, some more info to help your diagnosis

Postby jeff » Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:45 pm

billvelek wrote:Incidentally, Jeff, while going through this process, I noticed that when I changed the number of ingredients, the number shown in the drop down menu remains at 'two' -- one fermentable/grain and one hop, even though I have selected as many as 15 different hops. I've never noticed that before, but think it is not correct.


I am having trouble duplicating this problem. Can you describe specifically what you do that results in inaccurate counts in the display menu?

Thanks!
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Postby ColoradoBrewer » Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:06 am

I've noticed the same thing as well. I posted about it a few weeks ago, but perhaps you didn't see it , Jeff. This is what I posted:

Thanks for bringing that up, Bill. I've intended to mention this several times and have always forgotten. I've noticed the same thing. At some point it will update, but I'm not sure what triggers it because sometimes it will update during the session and at other times it might not update until BTP has been shut down and opened again.


Not a lot of help I know, but I don't think I'm doing anything out of the ordinary when I formulate a recipe. I select an ingredient from the My Ingredients database and choose "add to recipe". The ingredient appears in the recipe, but number of items field does not update most of the time, although sometimes I think it might. I'm not sure because number of ingredients isn't a big deal to me and I only bring it up so you will know that what Bill mentions is happening to more than one user.

EDIT: I just noticed that this is posted in the BTP 1.0 Forum. It should be in the beta forum because that's what I'm using. BTW, I just installed version 1.5.11b and the bug persists. I also noticed that when creating a new recipe the floppy icon is not enabled and I have to use File > Save in order to save the file. After doing that once the floppy icon is enabled. Again, not a big deal, just thought I'd point it out.
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Re: Jeff, some more info to help your diagnosis

Postby billvelek » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:12 pm

jeff wrote:
billvelek wrote:Incidentally, Jeff, while going through this process, I noticed that when I changed the number of ingredients, the number shown in the drop down menu remains at 'two' -- one fermentable/grain and one hop, even though I have selected as many as 15 different hops. I've never noticed that before, but think it is not correct.


I am having trouble duplicating this problem. Can you describe specifically what you do that results in inaccurate counts in the display menu?

Thanks!
Sorry for the delay, Jeff, but I've been in court today. I've tried to duplicate the problem myself, with no success -- at least not the _same_ problem. Now, it is either an intermittent problem, or you have fixed it with some other changes to the code. What I do know is that it was not imagined because I've shown you a screen print of it with the problem displayed -- http://home.alltel.net/billvelek/ingredients.JPG -- and this was also confirmed by Colorado Brewer. Let me also add that I have since upgraded BTP to version 1.5.11b from the previous version, so perhaps that explains it.

Now, in attempting to duplicate the error, I started with a blank recipe and tried to set up everything the same as the above link -- including receipe style, ingredients, etc. Here is a link to a screenshot which shows the same recipe EXCEPT that the ingredient number is now showing as seven instead of two -- http://home.alltel.net/billvelek/ingredients-2.JPG -- HOWEVER, also note that I have UN-checked (deselected) all ingredients except for two, yet the display stills numbers all of them. The number will not decrement until I actually delete an ingredient rather than just deselect it. I don't see that as an issue, but I don't know if that is how it is _supposed_ to be working now; actually, the original problem reported to me wasn't a big deal to me, either, but I wanted you to know that something seemed wrong. What _IS_ a much more important concern is the last apparent bug that I mentioned in this thread -- that BTP is converting unfermentable dextrines into alcohol. Did you see that, and do you think you will be able to do something about that? My temporary solution, although perhaps not perfect, is to manually take the difference in O.G. with the dextrine malt selected and de-selected, and then add that to the F.G. of the recipe with the dextrine de-selected; does that sound about right?

Cheers.

Bill Velek
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Problem loading recipe from BeerTools.com

Postby slothrob » Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:23 pm

When I load a recipe from BeerTools.com "online>my recipes...", then close the popup window, I get an error message: "A problem occurred (6), the program may be unstable, do you want to continue?" It's very reproducible, and it's been mentioned as a crashing problem with BTP on another forum.

The only other program I have open is Safari.
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Re: Problem loading recipe from BeerTools.com

Postby jeff » Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:31 pm

slothrob wrote:When I load a recipe from BeerTools.com "online>my recipes...", then close the popup window, I get an error message: "A problem occurred (6), the program may be unstable, do you want to continue?" It's very reproducible, and it's been mentioned as a crashing problem with BTP on another forum.

The only other program I have open is Safari.


This occurs with specific recipes but I don't know what the cause is yet. Which recipe is giving you trouble?
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