Mash Hopping ? ?

Brewing processes and methods. How to brew using extract, partial or all-grain. Tips and tricks.

Moderator: slothrob

Mash Hopping ? ?

Postby beerbugger » Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:00 pm

Has anyone out there tried mash hopping?
I have heard that it can have better resaults than boil hopping but if that's the case why don't we all do it?
How would I determine how much hops to use to get the right amount of flavor and bitterness?
beerbugger
Light Lager
Light Lager
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:32 pm

mash hopping

Postby slothrob » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:36 pm

I don't use this technique, but from what of read from people that do, it is a very inefficient use of hops and adds little.

I recommend trying First Wort Hopping if you'd like to try another technique. This is done by adding hops to the First Runnings from your tun and allowing them to steep throughout the collection process. The result is a smoother bitterness than 60 minute additions, and a good flavor and aroma contribution not usually seen with a 60 minute addition.
BTP v2.0.* Windows XP
User avatar
slothrob
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 1769
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:36 pm
Location: Greater Boston

Postby beerbugger » Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:56 pm

Thanks for the tip!
I collect my runnings directly to my boiler - would I have to remove the hops before the boil when using this method?
beerbugger
Light Lager
Light Lager
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:32 pm

leave hops in for FWH

Postby slothrob » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:49 pm

Nope. You want to leave the hops in when First Wort Hopping.

I suspect that this technique may become more popular now that hops are rarer and more expensive, as you get double-duty from the same hop charge.
BTP v2.0.* Windows XP
User avatar
slothrob
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 1769
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:36 pm
Location: Greater Boston

Not sure if this technique is my own creation ...

Postby billvelek » Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:49 pm

I'm not sure if this technique is my own creation ... or if others have already tried it ... but during my last brew session a week and a half ago I decided to try a new approach for using my flavor and aroma hops. Since those three batches are still fermenting, I haven't tried them yet, but I _think_ that ... theoretically ... I'm on solid ground. Let me know what you think.

First, aside from a few attempts at less common techniques like 'first wort hopping' and 'dry hopping', I've pretty much followed the convention of just hopping during the boil, generally 60 minutes for bittering, 5 minutes for flavor, and 1 minute for aroma, more or less. I've often wondered how much aroma I was losing during the time it would take to move the hot kettle into the kitchen, hook up the immersion chiller, and actually chill the wort down enough to stop evaporation of those volatile aroma components.

The technique that I used last session, which I have never heard or read about and as far as I know is my own creation, is to add only the bittering hops during the boil and hold off on the flavor and aroma hops. I then carried my kettle into the kitchen, scooped about half a pot (a quart or two) of wort into a small pot which was put on the kitchen burner to simmer, and then I started crash cooling the wort in my kettle with an immersion chiller. As my kettle approached the finish of cooling -- down to about 80F or thereabouts -- I turned up the small pot to a boil and pitched my flavor hops for 4 minutes, and then my aroma hops for another minute, and as soon as the timer went off, I dumped the hot wort -- chock full of flavor and aroma volatiles -- into my kettle of chilled wort and then stirred vigorously to dissipate the heat and protect those volatiles. I could tell that this warmed the wort back up a bit, but not enough to create any problems that I could think of, so I didn't bother to check the temperature but just kept on chilling for awhile longer until it was back down to about 70F. I then proceeded as usual. My _theory_ is that this should produce a more flavorful and aromatic beer because those components are chilled so much faster with this method to reduce their evaporation, and the chilling of the additional hot wort occurs so fast that any possible HSA should be minimized.

Only time will tell, but please let me know what each of you think, and whether you've ever heard of anyone doing this before. If this is successful and is also truly novel, then I will call it "second boil hopping". I hope that any improvement will be noticeable enough to justify this extra step, but my taste and nose might not be all that perceptive, so please let me know if you try this and notice any improvement in your beer. Thanks.

Cheers.

Bill Velek
Visit www.tinyurl.com/bvelek - portal to my brewing sites: 3,100+ members on 'Grow-Hops', and 1,350+ brewers on my 'BrewingEquip' group.
Running BTP v1.5.3 on WinXP 2005 SP3 w/AMD Athlon 64@3800+, 1GigRam, Res 1024x768
User avatar
billvelek
Imperial Stout
Imperial Stout
 
Posts: 801
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Arkansas, USA

2nd boil hopping

Postby slothrob » Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:06 pm

Never heard of that one, Bill, it seems like it should work, but I'm not sure of the efffect of only hopping a small volume. Is it efficient?

I've seen reference to another technique called Late Wort Hopping that seems to be another approach designed to target your concerns.

This can vary from the use of a Hop Back, to the hop steeping that a lot of people practice, where hops are allowed to sit in the slowly cooling wort for about 15' prior to rapid cooling, to the use of overnight cooling to allow the hops to steep in slowly cooling wort for close to a day.

I find that I get the best hop flavor when I use HopBursting, i.e. adding all the hops in the final 20' or so of the boil. The problem is that it's not terribly IBU efficient in this age of hop scarcity, but using some high alpha hops (that you like the flavor of, obviously) can make it reasonable.
BTP v2.0.* Windows XP
User avatar
slothrob
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 1769
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:36 pm
Location: Greater Boston

Late wort hopping

Postby billvelek » Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:27 pm

Yes, it seems that my technique is very similar to "late wort hopping", as I understand it, but I don't think it is identical in purpose or as it is practiced. Had to refresh on the topic, but from what I've just read it appears that late wort hopping (LWH) is primarily for the purpose of preserving some of the flavor and aroma characteristics from the bittering hops. [Okay, that is just one method and purpose, as you have suggested others, below.] To do that, the bittering hops can only be boiled for a very short time, which would therefore need to be very late in the boil because if you're aiming for aroma, conventional wisdom holds that you wouldn't boil for much more than a minute, and for flavor, not much more than 5 minutes. However, because it takes time to extract and isomerize the AA into iso-alpha acids, the only way to achieve the same level of bitterness is to use a massive amount of bittering hops; I checked one of my recipes on BTP, and to achieve the same bittering using just a 5 minute boil instead of 60 minutes, I'd need five times as much hops, and for a 1 minute boil instead of 60 minutes, I'd need 25 times as much hops. In this day of rising hop prices, I think that I can confidently predict that the technique of "late wort hopping" will probably become extremely rare. And aside from higher cost, I'm not sure how efficiently or effectively the isomerization is accomplished in a very short boil time like just one minute -- regardless of what BTP says -- but then I'm no expert, so perhaps it does work.

Now, my method, in contrast, does NOT seek to isomerize alpha acids, so a lengthy boil time is not needed; because I am using home grown hops of unknown AA%, I don't even factor them into the recipe except to perhaps generally aim for the lower range of IBUs within a style. You asked about the effect of hopping a small volume; I won't know for sure until I taste/smell the beer, but as you know, flavor and aroma components are other than the alpha acids which are affected by concentrated boils, and I've never heard of any effect on them in this regard. Moreover, I am not doing a true "concentrated" boil in the sense that my specific gravity is the same as my overall wort, so even hop utilization in the classic sense should not be affected. Admittedly, I am "concentrating" the amount of hops that I have in a given volume of wort, which makes this similar in that respect to "late wort hopping" without increasing the amount of hops, and only time will tell. In another forum it was suggested that my technique is a "hop tea"; I disagree with that because, AFAIK, a hop tea is made by steeping or boiling hops in WATER rather than in wort, which has a profound difference. But maybe I'm wrong about that.

EDIT: Ooops, I meant to address a couple of other comments. You also said:
This can vary from the use of a Hop Back, to the hop steeping that a lot of people practice, where hops are allowed to sit in the slowly cooling wort for about 15' prior to rapid cooling, to the use of overnight cooling to allow the hops to steep in slowly cooling wort for close to a day.

I want a hop-back someday; that strikes me as the best solution of all, but will need to wait until I build a larger system. I'm sure a pump is needed to force the hot wort through the resistance of the hop back on the way to the chiller.

Hop steeping seems questionable to me; first, unless you keep the lid on the kettle, I don't think if will be effective, and if you DO keep the lid on the kettle you are risking the formation of DMS ... PLUS, when you eventually take the lid off the kettle and the wort is prabably still 200F or so (unless you've set the kettle down in an ice-water bath), then I'd expect to see a big loss of volatiles which have still evaporated but merely stayed in the hot air inside the kettle. My method quickly cools any volatiles which are still liquid before they have a chance to evaporate.

Overnight cooling strikes me as even riskier re DMS, although evaporated volatiles would definitely have time to condense; but do they condense on the lid, which cools the fastest, yet not be enough to drip back into the wort?

I find that I get the best hop flavor when I use HopBursting, i.e. adding all the hops in the final 20' or so of the boil. The problem is that it's not terribly IBU efficient in this age of hop scarcity, but using some high alpha hops (that you like the flavor of, obviously) can make it reasonable.

Never tried "hop bursting" and now I'm pretty keen on getting the most from expensive hops, so I'll have to postpone trying it until prices drop.

Cheers.

Bill Velek
Visit www.tinyurl.com/bvelek - portal to my brewing sites: 3,100+ members on 'Grow-Hops', and 1,350+ brewers on my 'BrewingEquip' group.
Running BTP v1.5.3 on WinXP 2005 SP3 w/AMD Athlon 64@3800+, 1GigRam, Res 1024x768
User avatar
billvelek
Imperial Stout
Imperial Stout
 
Posts: 801
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Arkansas, USA

Alternative Hopping

Postby slothrob » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:18 pm

I don't think those employing Late Wort Hopping try to get all their IBU's from a big addition at the end of the boil. They have a traditional bittering addition and then a substantial hop load at the end, but only to achieve flavor and aroma, not IBU's.

I'm trying to work up a gravity fed Hop Back, I'll have to get back to you if it works.

I'm not a proponent of hop steeping, but it can work. There are extensive threads on slow cooling of wort on the Australian brewers forum (I assume because they're going through an extended drought) and some interesting experiments by Oldfart on the Brewboard, check them out. I believe it's actually difficult to get DMS problems if you are using British malts, because the SSM is quite low. Also, with sufficient boiling the SSM should be sufficiently converted and blown off as DMS, if I understand the process correctly. At least that's the theory and the claim by the techniques proponents.

I'm a quick chill, late addition guy, and I've had decent luck with hopm flavor and aroma, so I mostly focus on FWH and HopBursting.

Hopbursting can be quite hop-expensive if you try to make a 100 IBU DIPA, but can be very effetive for lower IBU ales. You can make a great variation on Ordinary Bitters and Pale Ales with 30'ish IBU and big hop flavor without breaking the hop-bank. I tend to focus more on flavor than aroma, but both benefit depending on how you weight your recipe.
BTP v2.0.* Windows XP
User avatar
slothrob
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 1769
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:36 pm
Location: Greater Boston


Return to Techniques, Methods, Tips & How To

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron