Tannin taste

What went wrong? Was this supposed to happen? Should I throw it out? What do I do now?

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Tannin taste

Postby jayhawk » Mon Sep 16, 2002 3:52 pm

What do tannins taste like? My first all grain is in the secondary, but the flavour is very harsh. At first I thought my siphon hose was the culprit, but now I realize that unfortunately, it's the beer. I had a crappy sparge, so I think I may have over sparged and screwed up. I'm not bitter though, just the beer. Will this off flavour carry through if I pitch a new batch on to the yeast cake in the secondary?
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possibly too much hops

Postby Gravity Thrills » Mon Sep 16, 2002 4:05 pm

First, relax and don't get discouraged - R.D.W.H.A.H.B! Unless you sparged with very hot water or oversparged with too much, I don't think the sparge is the culprit. I think it's more likely hop bitterness, but it may be a passing thing.

(Tannins are responsible for the astringency of tea - if you want to identify the flavor, brew a really strong tea - 2 teabags - and give it a taste.)

Two possibilities on the hops. first, recall that in a full-wort boil as opposed to an extract brew w/partial boil, your hop utilization will be greater and the hopping rates must be adjusted downward accordingly. If you hopped as per an old extract recipe, you may be looking at a permenantly bitter brew.

On the other hand, until all the beer falls clear, you have a lot of coarse, bitter hop resins bound to the yeast cells that you may be tasting. In that case, the beer will moderate and turn out fine.

Cheers,
Jim
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Please post your recipe.

Postby Azorean Brewer » Mon Sep 16, 2002 5:04 pm

J.H., in order to help out, how about posting your recipe with temp.'s and times of your mash and sparge. Include hop amounts and boil times. I agree with G.T., I did not realize that the hop utilization was greater when you boil all of the wort, what I ended up with is a very bitter Pale ale, fortunately I have friends that love free beer, so it was not a total waste.
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Recipe as per request

Postby jayhawk » Mon Sep 16, 2002 9:06 pm

I did break a cardinal rule while brewing this, I took terrible notes. I got lazy, I have no excuse. Anyway here is the recipe for 23L:
10lb pale malt, 8 oz crystal, 4 oz wheat
1.25 oz Goldings, 1.5 oz Cascade.
The hopping schedule is as follows: 9.4 AAU Cascade/Golding blend for 60 min, then 1 oz broken down in to 33% Cascade, 66% Golding blend for 1 min. (The hops also stay in the wort as the beer moves from kettle to primary via CF chiller.) This is my HBS owner's fave recipe, and I think that he usually partial mashes it. He may have not realized that I do full wort boils.

The mash went well, 66-68C for 60 mins. Then, I began to sparge, and I ran out of sparge water with only about 11 or 12 L collected in the kettle. I stopped sparging for about 10 minutes to heat up more water. At this point I gave up monitoring SG of the runnings or grain bed temp. I also ran the run off too quick, as I frequently had air bubbles running through the hose to my kettle. At the time I didn't know that sparging should take close to 1 hour (according to my HBS). The total sparging time I put in was probably 30 mins (not including time stopped for heating up more water). I collected about 23L, but the SG was 1.040, lower than the 1.050 I was hoping for. I imagine a lower SG would increase hop utilization as well.

To me, this batch is kind of hooped. First time out in to all grain land, I got a bit lost. No biggy. I will let it secondary for a while longer, and maybe it will turn around. If so good, if no, oh well. If you still want to submit any suggestions though, go ahead. I am always looking to learn more. Thanks.
Chris
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Nothing sticks out here

Postby Azorean Brewer » Tue Sep 17, 2002 2:19 am

Chris,

I don't see anything too unusual, unless letting your mash sit waiting for sparge water hurt, but I don't think so. Hop schedule did jump out either. I agreee with G.T. perhaps it will all settle out in age. Good luck. Paul.
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There's Hope Yet

Postby BillyBock » Tue Sep 17, 2002 2:47 am

Chris: Tannins make your mouth pucker. I believe you're experiencing the "Hop Zone". But there's hope.

This sounds very similar to my first all-grain, which was intended to be an IPA with an OG of 1.065 or so and 70 IBUs of bitterness. My OG was 1.045, FG was 1.004, and I hadn't changed my hop schedule to account for the lower gravity. The result? A very thin-bodied, and extremely bitter beer (at least to my taste buds) after a month in the bottle (call it Budweiser on steroids). BUT, it got better the longer I left it cold aging. Three months later I took some to my father. And it was a completely different brew! It was still dry, but the bitterness had mellowed substantially.

So don't despair, if it's too bitter/hoppy for you, just stick 'em in the fridge and brew another batch or two. By the time these two are ready the first should be better.

v/r
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no disaster I can see

Postby Gravity Thrills » Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:45 am

Az is right, your hopping rates look fine for that beer. And I agree that letting the mash hang while you boiled up more sparge water will have a minimal effect if any. Unless your sparge water pH was very high, I think you'll be fine. Rack it and I expect it will come out fine. If you're anything like me, the quality assurance/impatient brewer sampling of a couple of bottles a week will probably mean the beer will just be reaching peak condition as you down the last bottle!

Cheers,
Jim
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Thinking......

Postby Freon12 » Wed Sep 18, 2002 4:42 am

I need to know if the off flavor is in the lingering aftertaste or harshly bitter start to finish.
I going to point at the water if it is one of the above. High bicarbonite content water will give you a nasty bitter lingering after bite in pale beer with no dark malts(crystal alone won't save you).
Chlorine will give a nasty taste through out( I don't know if you boiled your water before brewing or not).

Just a thought.

Steve.
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Tap water

Postby jayhawk » Wed Sep 18, 2002 7:02 am

I just used tap water. The water here is decent, but it is chlorinated. I didn't boil prior to mashing or brewing. However, I have used tap water in all my extract brews with no problems like the one I am experiencing now.
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Sit out overnite

Postby Freon12 » Wed Sep 18, 2002 1:12 pm

I would try boiling or setting it out overnight like I do for my fish. The chlorine is gone in 24hrs.
Eliminate the possibiles one at a time til you find out.

Cheers
Steve
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Good plan

Postby jayhawk » Wed Sep 18, 2002 1:38 pm

I will be brewing this weekend. I will fill my kettle and let it sit this time. The less chlorine the better.
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Is that good in beer?

Postby Gravity Thrills » Wed Sep 18, 2002 1:45 pm

Let me get this straight... You let your fish set out overnight, and then do you add them to the mash or the boil?

Just kidding... :-) But, seriously, boiling or letting the chlorine dissapate overnight is one easy strp toward improving your beers. Boiling will also get rid of any temporary (chalk) hardness that might otherwise put your mash pH on the high side.

Cheers,
Jim
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Yeast Viability/Quantity

Postby andytv » Thu Sep 19, 2002 2:56 am

What was the temp of your primary fermentation & did you prepare a yeast starter. This sounds like a problem I was having at the beginning of the summer. For some reason this year, I getting a little lazy and wasn't paying too much attn to fermentation temps. Problem solved by increasing starter size and coming up with a way to hold temps.

Andy
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Hey thrills

Postby Freon12 » Thu Sep 19, 2002 4:56 am

I'm the funny man around here thank you very much.

Humor is an indicator of intelligence don't you know. Nice to have you here.

Freon "the sometimes too funnyman"
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That's my story

Postby Gravity Thrills » Thu Sep 19, 2002 7:50 am

Try telling my wife that when she's in one of her "I'm in no mood..." moods :-)
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