Lamic experiment

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Lamic experiment

Postby Payson » Sun Mar 23, 2003 5:39 pm

HELP!!! I've delved into the world of the Belgian Framboise Lambic headfirst and hope I'm not plummeting to the bottom! Let me explain: Started with "Brewferm framboise hopped malt extract". Added 2 lbs Muntons DME and proceeded to boil...(A mistake???) Anyway, I'm bringing the temp back down to 125 F. I then plan to add about 1/2 pound of black grain malt to instill the bacteriological growth required for souring. After the appropriate souring period (24-36 hours???) I plan to boil the wort again and add raspberry extract and finally top it off with water to 5 gallons. At that time, I have "Wyeast 3278 Belgian Lambic Blend". My question is this: Should I add the Belgian Lambic yeast at that time? Will it sour again? How will the souring stop? Am I totally off track??? Does this style of yeast assume that the previous souring steps I have taken were not taken? Any help appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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my 2 cents...

Postby Gravity Thrills » Sun Mar 23, 2003 5:56 pm

I have not personally gone any further with olambics/pseudolambics othar than using the BrewFerm kist off the shelf many years ago. But, here are my thoughts, in case noone else chimes in this evening...

I don't think you did wrong boiling the BrewFerm + DME - even though those are "no-boil" kits, boiling will give allow hot/cold breaks to get rid of some unwanted protein haze precursors.

I think adding some raw grain malt is a good way to jump start souring, bit I would not use black malt (at least not that much) because it will make your beer way darker than you want upon re-boiling. Most notes on full wort boiling I have read just instruct you to let the wort sour on its own for 12-24 hours, depending on the degree of sourness you desire.

I do think the Lambic blend yeast is supposed to be used in place of the wort souring, not in conjunction with it. I am not sure if the blend has just yeast and Lactobacilus, or if it has Brettanomyces in it as well - like I said, I've never done this. I do know that some P-lambic brewers add the blended yeasts for a secondary fermentation, I assume so that the sourness and horse sweat flavors don't overpower the balance.

Hopefully soemone with some first-hand experience will add to this, but I thought I'd at least share my thoughts.

Good luck.
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Reply to Gravity Thrills

Postby Payson » Sun Mar 23, 2003 6:07 pm

Thanks for your advice. I was hoping not to totally screw up an entire batch of this rather expensive beer. I will take your advice into consideration in the next step. Thanks again for your fast response (just enough time for the temperature to reach 130 degrees).
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Frambic...

Postby Mesa Maltworks » Mon Mar 24, 2003 6:01 am

You are working on one of my favorite styles ! When the Brewferm kits first came out in the early 90's I used their Framboise a good bit, sans yeast on the can, of course. Originally, the Wyeast Belgian Lambic Blend was not available so I used the Brettanomyces bruxellensis wild yeast which yields that "sweaty horse blanket" character mixed with EDME ale yeast. Some acidity formed, but it was not quite enough. On post Brewferm all-grain attempts I then used the Belgian Lambic blend
which contains a soup of yeast & bacteria... Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Belgian wheat yeast, sherry yeast, two Brettanomyces strains and Lactic Acid Bacteria. Now this blend does the trick quite well, sourness and all ! I didn't even have to produce a sour mash to get it right, although I tried it an found it unneccessary. As far as "stopping the sourness" this is done for you as the lactic acid bacteria run out of food to metabolize.

As far as boiling the kit... I usually encourage all kits to be boiled, but in this case doing so eliminates alot of the raspberry aroma and changes the fruit extract's flavor. Since Lambics, and particularly fruited ones, tend to be hazy due to fruit pectins and non-flocculant organisms, concern about chill haze produced by an inadequate boil are unneccessary. One way to recover the aromatics and some more flavor would be to toss in some frozen raspberries, the ones in the freezer case at grocery stores. Since they have been frozen, their cell walls have been ruptured. So when they thaw, they will release the sugars and flavors directly into the secondary. You will need to stir them in about 6 hours or so after adding. The CO2 released by doing so will purge the headspace of any oxygen that is introduced. The oxygen introduced into the wort will help the yeast become active again in the presence of the fruit sugars as well. This will obviously induce another round of fermentation, so use a blow-off tube ! You could also use Oregon fruit puree, but the raspberry seems to be only spotily available at grocery stores. Walmart carries the Oregon line in big cans in my area, but seldom has the raspberry. I prefer the frozen ones because they have experienced virtually no processing other than freezing. The Oregon products have been pasturized which caramelizes some of the fruit sugars and changes the fruit's flavor. This reason as well as wider availability and less expense is why I started using the frozen ones.

After a 3 month, third carboy rest, I transfer it into a bottling bucket with dry malt as a priming agent and champagne yeast from which I bottled the ale. After bottle conditiong, I sampled it at 3 month intervals and found it to be begining to stride at about nine months but it was awesome at about 1.5 years.

Have fun !

Eric
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Let Me Get this Straight...

Postby dartedplus » Mon Mar 24, 2003 12:24 pm

OK Eric, you are syaing that if I get the brewferm kit, I jsut need to add the lambic blend and then add some raspberries later in the secondary and I should get a pretty good belgian lambic????
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Well... not exactly...

Postby Mesa Maltworks » Tue Mar 25, 2003 7:09 am

Using the Brewferm kit with the Lambic blend yeast is a giant step in the right direction, but as with many kits, the formulation and condensation of the wort used to produce the kit leads to yielding a higher color value than the style guidelines provide for. It's color and flavor turns out more reminiscent of a Belgian brown ale, sort of the color of Liefman's Frambozenbier. Using this kit and the blend will produce a good approximation of the intent of the style, but in my opinion will not cover all of the bases required to nail it. This is why I went to all-graining the style.

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Whats the all grain recipe??

Postby dartedplus » Tue Mar 25, 2003 10:21 am

What did you come up with for the all grain recipe for this kind of beer?
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Thanks...

Postby Payson » Wed Mar 26, 2003 5:58 am

Eric-
Thanks so much for the insight! So far so good. I added 4 oz. of raspberry extract to see if that would boost the flavor after the boil. I also plan on adding the frozen fruit. We shall see... Keeping my fingers crossed!
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All-Grain Framboise...

Postby Mesa Maltworks » Wed Mar 26, 2003 8:38 am

The base recipe for the Lambic:

3.5# - Mouterij Dingemans Pale Ale Malt (2.7L/80 FG/DB per #)
3.00 # - Weyermann Pale Wheat (1.5L/85 FG/DB per #)
.57 # - Mouterij Dingemans CaraMunich (50L/70 FG/DB per #)
4# - Frozen Raspberries (~1.020 SG/#)

.35 Oz. - Whole Hallertau Mittlefruh (Aged in attic on open screens for 2 month in the summer. Started out at 4% AAU, but after aging, I calculated that they had fallen to 2.79 AAU !)

Proceedures:

Mashing:

20 Minutes @ 128 Deg. F.
15 Minutes @ 140 Deg. F.
60 Minutes @ 156 Deg. F.
10 Minutes @ 168 Deg. F. (Mashout Rest)
Sparge @ 168 Deg. F.

Boiling:

Add all hops and boil 2 hours vigorously with lid off the kettle. Chill to 64 deg. F. and transfer to fermenter.

Fermentation:

1. Pitch in with a neutral flavor ale yeast. (Wyeast 1056 is good here). Ferment no higher than 64 deg. F.

2. After the beer goes down to 1.013 (3.3P), quietly rack it off into a secondary containing the Lambic Blend cultures and 3# of frozen Raspberries. MAKE SURE TO USE A BLOWOFF TUBE ON THIS FERMENTER ! If you use an airlock, a hell of a mess will ensue !!! Ferment at 64 deg. F.

3. Transfer to a 3rd carboy containing 1# of frozen raspberries when the beer reaches 1.009. This will start another much smaller round of fermentation but it will be short lived. Allow the beer to rest in this vessel for 3-4 weeks at 64 deg. F.

4. Transfer the beer to a carboy and condition at 32-38 deg. F. for 4 weeks.

5. Bottle with priming sugar as usual and age at least 4 weeks at 70 deg. F before sampling. This beer will continue to improve over a years conditioning time.

At the time, my real measured efficiency was 70% (typical of most homebrewers) and yielded the following specs:

Style Guidelines, BJCP 20-C Lambic & Belgian Sour Ale, Fruit Lambic-style Ale:

Min OG: 1.044 Max OG: 1.056
Min IBU: 10 Max IBU: 15
Min Clr: 4 Max Clr: 15

My Recipe Statistics:

Batch Size (Gal): 5.00 Wort Size (Gal): 6.00
OG: 1.053 Plato: 13.16
SRM: 6.7
IBU: 13.6

Here is the fermentables breakdown:

31.6% = Mouterij Dingemans Pale Ale, yielding 4.27 Plato
27.1% = Weyermann Pale Wheat Malt, yielding 3.79 Plato
5.1% = Meussdoerffer Cara Dunkle, yielding 0.69 Plato
36.1% = Frozen Raspberries, yielding 4.41 Plato.

So: 4.27 + 3.79 + .69 + 4.41 = 13.16 Plato/1.053 SG.

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Thanks Man!!!

Postby dartedplus » Wed Mar 26, 2003 3:53 pm

I'll add it to my list and brew it as soon as I can. Thanks Eric.
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