New Batch Sparge Feature... Where's first runnings?

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New Batch Sparge Feature... Where's first runnings?

Postby Bobby_M » Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:09 pm

Just when I got used to the way it used to be ;-)

Of course, everyone argued that Fly and Batch should be vastly different and complained of the lack of presets (I still think presets should be there) but I digress. The major flaw I currently see is NOT being able to drain the first runnings (the available wort as strike minus grain absorbtion). How do I accomplish this prior to the "new batch sparge"?

In the old system, the first separation would be Zero infused, all runoff, no residual. I know some batch spargers infuse prior to runoff (call it a mashout if you want to), but I don't and won't.

I set my schedule to:
1. Mash In
2. Sac Rest
3. xxxxxx missing first runnings xxxxxxx
4. Batch sparge half volume
5. Batch sparge second half volume
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Re: New Batch Sparge Feature... Where's first runnings?

Postby jeff » Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:12 pm

Bobby_M wrote:Just when I got used to the way it used to be ;-)

Of course, everyone argued that Fly and Batch should be vastly different and complained of the lack of presets (I still think presets should be there) but I digress. The major flaw I currently see is just being able to drain the first runnings (the available wort as strike minus grain absorbtion). How do I accomplish this prior to the "new batch sparge"?


First runnings is entered as your first sparge without any water added. Enter it along with your other batches in the batch sparge editor. BTP will calculate absorption automatically.
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Postby orion2598 » Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:41 pm

So far so good. One question though.

I do things almost the same except I do:

1. Mash in @ 1.25 qt/lb
2. Sac rest
3. Batch Sparge
4. Infusion of water to equal remaining wort needed, @ a temp set to equalize mash @ 170
5. Second batch sparge


For step #4, I was going to use an infusion step, but it does not seem to work. If I know I need 10.5 more gallons, I enter in 10.5 gallons in the 'Water Volume' field, but it blanks it out as soon as I move away from the field. If I instead change the 'Infusion Rate' to something like 2.0, (trying to get it to equal 10 gallons), the 'Water Volume' still stays at 0.

User error or bug?

Thanks,
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Postby jeff » Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:47 pm

orion2598 wrote:So far so good. One question though.

I do things almost the same except I do:

1. Mash in @ 1.25 qt/lb
2. Sac rest
3. Batch Sparge
4. Infusion of water to equal remaining wort needed, @ a temp set to equalize mash @ 170
5. Second batch sparge


For step #4, I was going to use an infusion step, but it does not seem to work. If I know I need 10.5 more gallons, I enter in 10.5 gallons in the 'Water Volume' field, but it blanks it out as soon as I move away from the field. If I instead change the 'Infusion Rate' to something like 2.0, (trying to get it to equal 10 gallons), the 'Water Volume' still stays at 0.

User error or bug?

Thanks,
Greg


What's in your recipe?
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Postby orion2598 » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:07 pm

jeff wrote:
What's in your recipe?


20 lbs of grain and 3 oz of hops
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Postby orion2598 » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:09 pm

BTW, I can get things to work if I use a second batch sparge, but I really liked the idea of BTP telling me what temp my infusion had to be at with x amount of water to bring the 150 degree mash up to 170. Don't think the batch sparge does that (but I could be wrong). It says 10.5 gallons @ 180 degrees, but that sounds a little low to me.
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Postby jeff » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:12 pm

orion2598 wrote:So far so good. One question though.

I do things almost the same except I do:

1. Mash in @ 1.25 qt/lb
2. Sac rest
3. Batch Sparge
4. Infusion of water to equal remaining wort needed, @ a temp set to equalize mash @ 170
5. Second batch sparge


For step #4, I was going to use an infusion step, but it does not seem to work. If I know I need 10.5 more gallons, I enter in 10.5 gallons in the 'Water Volume' field, but it blanks it out as soon as I move away from the field. If I instead change the 'Infusion Rate' to something like 2.0, (trying to get it to equal 10 gallons), the 'Water Volume' still stays at 0.

User error or bug?

Thanks,
Greg


Ok, I see it now. BTP assumes that all the grain has been separated from the extract after a sparge step. When you insert your infusion, there is no grist on which to base the grist ratio. You will have to work your infusion into a batch sparge in some way. You may be able to utilize the Window->Calculators->Mash->Infusion tool to help know how much water to add.
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Postby Bobby_M » Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:02 pm

orion2598 wrote:BTW, I can get things to work if I use a second batch sparge, but I really liked the idea of BTP telling me what temp my infusion had to be at with x amount of water to bring the 150 degree mash up to 170. Don't think the batch sparge does that (but I could be wrong). It says 10.5 gallons @ 180 degrees, but that sounds a little low to me.


I have to say that I have no idea what your step #4 is. The "sparge" step IS an infusion and each batch sparge step has a temperature input. I runoff my mash, then use 180-185F sparge water. The first sparge infusion gets me to 163, second to 169F. This pic here is when you use 180F instead but you get the idea.

Image

I now unerstand that unlike the previous separation steps in 1.029, each box in the batch sparge window is looking for infusion info, but assumes a full runoff after each (just like every batch spprger does). Good stuff... no micro managing residuals, etc.
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Postby Brew Chef » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:40 am

Another great feature....seems to work ok for me so far
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Postby slothrob » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:48 pm

Bobby_M wrote:I have to say that I have no idea what your step #4 is. The "sparge" step IS an infusion and each batch sparge step has a temperature input. I runoff my mash, then use 180-185F sparge water. The first sparge infusion gets me to 163, second to 169F. This pic here is when you use 180F instead but you get the idea.

I think that the 165.8
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Postby jeff » Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:57 pm

slothrob wrote:Jeff can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the program currently calculated what the temperature of the grist+sparge infusion will be. I always thought it did, but I believe I was wrong.


There is a trick you can use to see what the temp of the mash + infusion is. Select "None" as your collection vessel and the vessel heat capacity will not affect the final temperature value. This should give a rough indication of the temperature of the mash after the infusion.
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Postby Bobby_M » Tue Mar 18, 2008 2:41 pm

Hey, you know that WAS my assumption all along too (that the final temp indicated was the grist including the new infusion). Now I SORT OF understand why you might want to know the temp in the collection vessel but isn't the grist after infusion the more important figure? I don't mind using collection vessel none as a workaround. However, does collection vessel = none mean that the batch sparge will not assume a full drain? Isn't it a pardox?

No, I've never gone over 168 with 180F infusions as I've measured it over and over to make sure.
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Postby jeff » Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:57 pm

Bobby_M wrote:I don't mind using collection vessel none as a workaround. However, does collection vessel = none mean that the batch sparge will not assume a full drain? Isn't it a pardox?.


I only recommend switching to "none" temporarily to see the figure. Just a quick informal way to get a little extra info.

The reason the final temp reflects the temperature in the collection vessel is because this is the starting point for heating the wort to boiling temp. When the boil, steep and add extract steps are implemented, the whole brewing process can be mapped in the schedule.
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Postby slothrob » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:13 pm

jeff wrote:There is a trick you can use to see what the temp of the mash + infusion is. Select "None" as your collection vessel and the vessel heat capacity will not affect the final temperature value. This should give a rough indication of the temperature of the mash after the infusion.
Thanks for that trick, Jeff! That's helpful.
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Postby Bobby_M » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:16 pm

Jeff,
That's the usage I expected out of the collection vessel temp but wouldn't you agree that resultant grist temp upon a new infusion is more important than calculating heating times in the schedule? Even if it's not more important, I think batch spargers would find it more important than "a little extra info".

For me, it's the difference between a nice efficient sparge and pulling tannins. I like to walk the fine line in between and feel like the 168F infusions that fly spargers use should not be a defacto carryover for batch spargers.

I would love it if you'd consider figuring out a way to display resultant grist temp upon infusions in the batch sparge window without having to work around.
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