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Re: Kettle volume lock

Postby slothrob » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:15 am

jeff wrote:The total runoff lock checkbox locks the value to the kettle volume as it would be at the runoff temperature and without any boil additions. If there are any boil added ingredients such as extracts and sugars, these are subtracted from the runoff volume so that when they are added to the boil the correct kettle volume will be achieved.

When I try to use this lock box, it sets my Total Runoff correctly, but sets my first runnings to the to the Total Runoff, even though I don't have that much available, so I correct it. The primary problem is that it sets my "Sparge #2" to 0 gal and doesn't allow me to change it.
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Re: Kettle volume lock

Postby jeff » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:36 pm

slothrob wrote:When I try to use this lock box, it sets my Total Runoff correctly, but sets my first runnings to the to the Total Runoff, even though I don't have that much available, so I correct it. The primary problem is that it sets my "Sparge #2" to 0 gal and doesn't allow me to change it.


Have you set your first runnings sparge volume to 0? Don't forget that the volume you enter for each sparge is the volume of sparge water not volume of runoff. So if you are collecting first runnings, then the sparge volume should be 0. BTP will calculate the runoff volume automatically.
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Re: Thanks, Eric (slothrob)

Postby billvelek » Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:54 pm

I previously wrote:Eric, I followed your instructions and created a schedule that seems to work (http://tinyurl.com/yrp27n for anyone who wants to look at it). ... snip ...
There are still some things that are throwing me off a bit ... snip ... such as my assumption that the BTP schedule would somehow match the target volume or vice versa, but I see from your comments that users just need to play with the schedule to manually try to get close to their target. ... snip

BUT I ALSO JUST DISCOVERED, VIA ...
jeff wrote:The total runoff lock checkbox locks the value to the kettle volume as it would be at the runoff temperature and without any boil additions. If there are any boil added ingredients such as extracts and sugars, these are subtracted from the runoff volume so that when they are added to the boil the correct kettle volume will be achieved.

I guess I just missed that post or didn't recall it when I made my comment, above. But now I have tried the "Lock Total Runoff", and it automatically and equally altered my two batch sparge volumes in order to lower my volume to match the needed kettle volume (allowing for differences in temp). This is really great, and I'm not even going to consider selling BTP now. As for your last post, Eric, where ...
you wrote:When I try to use this lock box, it sets my Total Runoff correctly, but sets my first runnings to the to the Total Runoff, even though I don't have that much available, so I correct it. The primary problem is that it sets my "Sparge #2" to 0 gal and doesn't allow me to change it.

That was not my experience when I tried it, as I just mentioned. I'll play with this some more to see if I can duplicate the problem. Did you set the Lock Box first, when you initially opened the Batch Sparge edit box and before putting any volume values into the sparges?

On a different note ... a potential bug ... using my schedule (see my above link), I doubled the final volume using the "Scale" feature and the Mash In volume doubled and its temp dropped a bit because the tun's heat mass doesn't double, etc. (amazing program thinks of everything), ... BUT ... the Mash Out step immediately turned red because it kept the same volume and recalculated an infusion temperature of 232.2F. To fix it, I just had to manually reset the Mash Out infusion temp to 211F and then its volume, and all subsequent sparge volumes, properly changed. I think Jeff just needs to make that resetting of the Mash Out infusion volume instead of the temp change happen automatically.

I know this is a long post, but on another somewhat related point, I just noticed for the first time that when I "scale" my recipe to double it, that the Kettle Volume does not double. Looking more closely, I note that it is because the evaporation loss does not 'scale'. I'm not saying that this is a 'bug', because I'm sure that it doesn't need to double in some situations. However, if a person doesn't pay close attention when they double their mash in order to run the same recipe into two different kettles, then they are going to come up a bit short in the boil. I don't know how to suggest an improvement other than maybe changing color of the Evaporative Loss to red until the field is clicked or moused over, in order to bring it to a brewer's attention as possibly needing change. OR ... maybe add a tab in the menu 'Edit | Preference' box to permit a user to select 'Yes' or 'No' on the option of "Scaling also scales Evaporation Loss". Actually, having it do BOTH would be my preference.

Cheers.

Bill Velek
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Re: Kettle volume lock

Postby slothrob » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:15 pm

jeff wrote:
slothrob wrote:When I try to use this lock box, it sets my Total Runoff correctly, but sets my first runnings to the to the Total Runoff, even though I don't have that much available, so I correct it. The primary problem is that it sets my "Sparge #2" to 0 gal and doesn't allow me to change it.


Have you set your first runnings sparge volume to 0? Don't forget that the volume you enter for each sparge is the volume of sparge water not volume of runoff. So if you are collecting first runnings, then the sparge volume should be 0. BTP will calculate the runoff volume automatically.

Thanks, I knew better, but I started using the new window like the old one and made exactly the mistake you describe. Good catch!
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Re: Thanks, Eric (slothrob)

Postby slothrob » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:30 pm

Bill wrote:That was not my experience when I tried it, as I just mentioned. I'll play with this some more to see if I can duplicate the problem.

It turns out I was just being thick and entering my runnoff volume as my non-existent sparge volume in the first runnings volume window. I tried thinking too early in the morning, that's my problem.

Bill wrote:On a different note ... a potential bug ... using my schedule (see my above link), I doubled the final volume using the "Scale" feature and the Mash In volume doubled and its temp dropped a bit because the tun's heat mass doesn't double, etc. (amazing program thinks of everything), ... BUT ... the Mash Out step immediately turned red because it kept the same volume and recalculated an infusion temperature of 232.2F
This won't happen if you hit the lock box next to the Water Temp in the Mash Out Infusion edit window.

Bill wrote:when I "scale" my recipe to double it, that the Kettle Volume does not double.
If you're using the same pot, this shouldn't change (much). Perhaps the default value could be tied to a selected vessel in the equipment list. If you double the recipe the evap. would stay the same, but if you had to switch to a bigger pot to fit the new volume, it would change to the typical evap. for that pot.
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Re: Thanks, Eric (slothrob)

Postby billvelek » Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:29 pm

slothrob wrote:
Bill wrote:snip ... the Mash Out step immediately turned red because it kept the same volume and recalculated an infusion temperature of 232.2F
This won't happen if you hit the lock box next to the Water Temp in the Mash Out Infusion edit window.

Thanks. Works like a champ now.

slothrob wrote:
Bill wrote:when I "scale" my recipe to double it, that the Kettle Volume does not double.
If you're using the same pot, this shouldn't change (much). Perhaps the default value could be tied to a selected vessel in the equipment list. If you double the recipe the evap. would stay the same, but if you had to switch to a bigger pot to fit the new volume, it would change to the typical evap. for that pot.

Actually, my reference to "running into two different kettles" meant doing one mash, such as for a partigyle or to just evenly mix the runnings for two batches differing only in hops, and then boiling them separately either in two different kettles or successively in the same kettle. In that case, my total evaporation for 10-gallons, done in two separate 5-gallon boils, should be double my evaporation for a 5-gallon recipe before any scaling. As I said, using the scaling feature to double my recipe will double my ingredients, but not my 'evaporation loss' nor my initial 'Kettle Volume'. Also, let's say that I was to double a 5-gallon recipe normally boiled in my turkey-fryer, but now the doubled-batch to be boiled in a converted keg; if the evaporation rate is the same, despite that I'd be using a larger kettle for a larger batch, then the vigor of the boil, relative to the size of the batch, would necessarily be less. As it is, I prefer to apply the basic rule of boiling off from 8% to 10% per hour regardless of batch size, therefore 10-gallons always has twice as much evaporation as 5-gallons, whether they are done in separate kettles or not. In an extreme example, you wouldn't use the same evaporation value from a 5-gallon recipe for a 40 gallon recipe boiled in a 55-gallon drum, right? Now that I know that scaling does not affect the volume of 'evaporation loss', I'll just need to remember that fact whenever I scale a recipe. But those brewer's who have just never noticed it could very easily get caught by it ... and I am getting more and more forgetful as I age, too. :( So I think a flagging action of some sort, such as changing the text color to red, is appropriate and ought to be easy enough. It would definitely be helpful.

Cheers.

Bill Velek
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Re: Thanks, Eric (slothrob)

Postby slothrob » Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:52 pm

billvelek wrote:As it is, I prefer to apply the basic rule of boiling off from 8% to 10% per hour regardless of batch size, therefore 10-gallons always has twice as much evaporation as 5-gallons, whether they are done in separate kettles or not.

In an extreme example, you wouldn't use the same evaporation value from a 5-gallon recipe for a 40 gallon recipe boiled in a 55-gallon drum, right?

Yes, I shoot for 8-10%, too...but I get what that vessel gives me, no matter what volume I put in it. I think the primary determinants of boil-off are probably diameter of pot and boil-vigor. Since I typically use the same pot, a 3 gallon batch loses the same volume (give or take) as a 5 gallon batch.

Your example is why I thought it might be useful to link the evaporation to the kettle chosen.
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Evaporation

Postby jeff » Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:05 pm

Volume of water lost to evaporation should not be significantly affected by the size of the vessel unless the different vessels have more or less contact with the heat source. Evaporation loss is a function of how much heat energy is transferred to the liquid and not a function of the volume of liquid itself. This means that predicting evaporation loss as a percentage of the volume is inaccurate.

For example, lets say you use the same burner and pot to boil 1 gallon and 10 gallons. Using the percent evaporation method at 10%/hr, 1/10 gal and 1 gal would be predicted for the two boil sizes respectively. In reality, the evaporation loss would be much closer for both tests, and in theory they would be the same.

For this reason, BTP uses a fixed volume per hour rate to predict evaporation losses. This number should be adjusted for various burners and how high burners are turned on. But the current method of calculating evaporation losses will be replaced by a new "step" in the schedule called the Boil step. This will predict evaporation loss based on heat source calibration instead of guessed approximations. By using the heat output of the heat source as the basis for vaporization, BTP should make accounting for evaporation losses easier.
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Postby jawbox » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:03 pm

sloth all the fields appear that you can update them in the main screen. I just did this to set my first running infusion to 0 as the program doesn't take into account the size of your mash tun and the first infusion listed in the schedule would put me over the 10 gal limit.
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schedule

Postby slothrob » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:18 am

jawbox wrote:sloth all the fields appear that you can update them in the main screen. I just did this to set my first running infusion to 0 as the program doesn't take into account the size of your mash tun and the first infusion listed in the schedule would put me over the 10 gal limit.
Yes, that in-line editing is a nice aggravation reducer. I know this isn't the feature request thread, but while we're on the subject, being able to specify the maximum capacity of your tun, or linking it to the vessel chosen, would be a nice feature, too.

Concerning the boil-off... I believe everything Jeff said is true, but I have two kettles, a 5 gallon SS pot (that I use for 3 gallon batches) and an 8 gallon aluminum pot. The 8 gallon has about a 50% larger diameter than the 5 gallon and boils off about 30% more per hour. I've assumed it was due to the larger diameter, as I recall seing an evaporation calculator based on kettle diameter, but perhaps the difference is in heat transfer to the aluminum kettle vs. stainless. I have found that it doesn't matter if I boil 7 gallons or 4.5 gallons in the larger pot, I lose a pretty reliable 1 gallon/hr.
Last edited by slothrob on Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby jawbox » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:30 am

I agree the schedule should take into account your mash tun size, then theres one less thing for me to worry about.
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