Out of "Priming Agent", would like to use wort...

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Out of "Priming Agent", would like to use wort...

Postby bzwrxbz » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:13 am

I will run out of DME for priming on this next batch I am about to do. Since a LHBS is nowhere near, I thought I would just keep some wort out of the fermenter and freeze it or something until bottling time.

It seems that BTP does not have this option on the drop down to use wort as the priming agent, could it be added?

In the meantime, how do I go about measuring how much wort to keep in order to prime my bottles to a certain level? Anybody have any links on techniques or formulas on how to do this?

cheers!
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RE: Out of "Priming Agent"...

Postby wottaguy » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:58 am

Hi!
I am wondering if you have considered using some liquid Corn Syrup that is available in any grocery store as your priming agent? Just wondering
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Postby slothrob » Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:51 pm

That sounds like a risky proposition, since it will be impossible to know the exact fermentability of the wort. I think you're asking for either flat beer or bottle bombs.

I'd use table sugar. You'll never know the difference and the fermentability is a predictable value.
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Postby bzwrxbz » Wed Mar 14, 2007 4:08 pm

slothrob wrote:That sounds like a risky proposition, since it will be impossible to know the exact fermentability of the wort. I think you're asking for either flat beer or bottle bombs.

I'd use table sugar. You'll never know the difference and the fermentability is a predictable value.


Table sugar sounds like a good idea... but i do not understand why i would not know the exact fermentability of the saved wort? At the time of bottling I would know OG and FG. And since I do not know on brewing day exactly how much wort to keep, I can probably make a good guess as to what the FG will be given history/mash temps/yeast type. Then, I can allocate a volume of wort for the worst case.

Besides, I am forced to follow Reinheitsgebot here, or my brewing license gets suspended... just kidding ;)

cheers!
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It's called "kr

Postby billvelek » Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:44 pm

slothrob wrote:That sounds like a risky proposition, since it will be impossible to know the exact fermentability of the wort. I think you're asking for either flat beer or bottle bombs.

I'd use table sugar. You'll never know the difference and the fermentability is a predictable value.
I agree with using table sugar; works great. But as for "kr
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Postby bzwrxbz » Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:19 pm

Thanks for the info Bill...

It does sound like a complex subject matter... but, I am sure it would be less complex if some kind of "calculator" ;) figured out all of the nasty details for us.

Here is another link on the subject... http://byo.com/departments/1550.html

Krausening technically requires fresh yeast as well, but it is close enough to what I was talking about. It would be interesting to try someday.

I think i will just use the table sugar instead of saved wort for now. In the past I have only used corn sugar and DME... I guess this will be a first for me using table sugar. Looking at the amounts BTP gives for corn vs table sugar, it seems the amounts needed are "fairly" similar.

cheers!
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Postby billvelek » Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:08 pm

bzwrxbz wrote:Snip ... Krausening technically requires fresh yeast as well, but it is close enough to what I was talking about. It would be interesting to try someday. ... snip

Well, I don't know that 'fresh yeast' is a "requirement", per se, or if it's just the way it is normally done for convenience and faster conditioning which is important for commercial ventures. For a commercial brewery that is turning out the same recipe over and over, it's a 'no brainer' to mix some wort at high krausen with the finished beer, but if I've made a pale ale and want to krausen it but my next recipe is a stout, I can't use that. For homebrewers, the solution is to take the wort you saved and pitch the yeast a day or so before bottling, as someone else has already suggested. The problem with that is that you've already committed yourself then, and if something comes up that requires you to postpone your bottling until the next weekend, what do you do? I guess just let the 'starter' finish so that you can use the yeast slurry in your next batch, and then use a more conventional way to prime the batch you're bottling. Alternatively, I think you can just as safely rely on the yeast in suspension as is done when priming with sugar; that's what I would do. And incidentally, I almost always brew and bottle on the same day, and I usually make starters -- even when using dry yeast -- because the yeast is active when it's pitched and I get quicker fermentation that way. So since I have a nice starter going, I generally always pour a small amount of it into my bottling bucket just for good measure. Naturally, a brewer could just add a packet of fresh yeast to the bottling bucket, but I see that as a needless expense, and while I'd do it if there were any evidence that it would actually make a difference in the quality of my beer -- I'd definitely need to see some realiable evidence first, since I'm a cheap skate. :mrgreen: -- and especially if I were using liquid yeast at six or seven bucks a pop. I could use the $2.50 packs of dry yeast, but if I had used liquid yeast in my original recipe, why would I want a significant percentage of my beer -- the primer portion, which your BYO link says should be equal to 10-17% of my green beer -- fermented with a different yeast? Anyway, however this is done, it would be interesting to bottle half the batch primed with krausened wort and half with a more conventional primer and see how they compare. This might be worth the extra effort for competition brews.

Cheers.

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Postby slothrob » Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:57 am

bzwrxbz wrote:... but i do not understand why i would not know the exact fermentability of the saved wort? At the time of bottling I would know OG and FG. And since I do not know on brewing day exactly how much wort to keep, I can probably make a good guess as to what the FG will be given history/mash temps/yeast type. Then, I can allocate a volume of wort for the worst case.
Sorry, I was picturing that you would make up a small batch of fresh wort for priming, not save wort. Certainly you would know what you need to know for that case.

The math doesn't seem that difficult:
Make up a fake recipe with just the amount of sugar you would use for priming to get your target carbonation, noting the gravity contribution of that amount of sugar to 5 gallons (assuming a 5 gal batch).
Then, add that amount of gravity in saved wort, correcting for the unfermentable portion.
e.g., if you wanted to add 2 points to carbonate, and your beer fermented from 1.040 to 1.010, which gives you 30 points of fermentables, then your priming wort is 15 times more concentrated than you need to carbonate (30/2= 15x).
Batch Volume/(Point Change/Points To Add) = Amount of Priming Wort to Add. 5gal/15=0.33 gal priming wort.

Just replace the 2, the 30, and the volume with your own values.

If you want it more accurate, you'll need to correct for the added volume. The correct math is eluding me at the moment, but you can just go back and recalculate with the Batch Volume + Priming Volume and get real close.
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Adapting formula

Postby billvelek » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:49 pm

Hi, Slothrob. You are correct that this can be worked out; prior to your post I also provided a formula from Papazian, although it is an over simplification for two reasons:
1. It fails to consider how attenuable the wort is, i.e., ratio of femermentables to un-fermentables, especially when using certain extracts, or grains & mash schedule.
2. As Papazian stated, he assumes carbonation at the level equivalent to 3/4 cup of corn sugar per 5 gallons.

But if it is reasonably accurate to begin with (I have no idea), it wouldn't be hard to make a few adjustments to compensate, using data that BTP can now provide to us. It would be helpful to know how much attenuation Papazian assumes when he uses his "12" constant, but it should be possible to work backwards with BTP to determine that, too. Anyway, let's assume, for example, that he assumes 80%, then I submit that we can plug fractions into Papazian's formula; if we discover that the wort from our particular recipe attenuated only 74%, then we would multiply his formula by the fraction of 80/74 and if we want a level of carbonation that is higher or lower than the standard he uses, we would also multiply by that fraction. Finally, if we are also allowing that priming wort to come to high krausen before bottling, we would also need to multiply the formula by a fraction that would be something like [('Recipe OG' - 'Recipe FG') / ('Current Primer OG' - 'Recipe FG')] ... or something like that, to make up for some of the fermentables lost while reaching high krausen.

That might not be entirely accurate, but I hope Jeff and Lathe are following this thread; I'm sure that would be able to come up with an exact calculation too that would be easy and accurate.

Cheers.

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Postby slothrob » Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:17 pm

Right, it's all possible with a little work and a little math.

My original post was an oversimplification based on bad experiences I've had trying to prime with DME of unknown fermentability. That problem could have been solved with a couple experiments and some math, as well, but sugar was a much easier solution when carbonation was my only goal.
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