Automatic Calculation Tool of Mash Efficency and BH Effic.

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Automatic Calculation Tool of Mash Efficency and BH Effic.

Postby FrugalBrewer » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:07 pm

I am still learning the craft, but as I see it given the amount of informationa already present in BTP for grains etc...

Shouldn't the software be able to calculate the actual Mash and Brewhouse efficiencies based on the volumes and gravity updates made by the brewer?

I admitt an estimated efficiency is necessary initially, but once the hard numbers are keyed in............

I would presume that this could be a standalone resdout similar to the style dialog.
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Postby bzwrxbz » Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:05 pm

Hover the cursor over the Kettle Volume and Final Volume text boxes, and this will give you gravitys (little pop up).

Also, you can enter in the actual gravities in the analysis tab at the bottom of the program.

Does this help?

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Postby FrugalBrewer » Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:48 pm

bzwrxbz wrote:Hover the cursor over the Kettle Volume and Final Volume text boxes, and this will give you gravitys (little pop up).

Also, you can enter in the actual gravities in the analysis tab at the bottom of the program.

Does this help?

cheers!


Can't verify yet, I am not at that computer but, I don't "think" we are talking about the same thing.

By establishing an estimated value for efficiency the software can estimate gravities base on the grain bill. I understand this.

But why not, "lock it down" by going the other way.

Example: I estimate my mash efficiency at 75% to get a rough potential for the recipe results (gravities, alc, etc..). But as I go through the steps of mashing I will record actual gravities and volumes. My actual efficiency "may" end up higher or lower. Granted I can make the adjustment manually but that isn't the point.

Given that this particular figure is based on the malsters provided average of points per pound per gallon and that information is or could be part of the grain database.

Why cant/doesnt BTP calculate the actual figure in real time?

Couldn't the same be done for boil off, and brewhouse efficency?

I know these can be manually calculated, but isn't the software intended to relieve the brewer of those tasks. Plus, having this "real time data" may alert the brewer to procedure errors, or indicate problems elsewhere. Maybe I ask too much.
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Postby jctull » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:58 pm

This is a good point. Although it is tricky come up with a real estimate of efficiency due to variability from evaporation, malt quality, extraction, etc., the calculation is possible. This would be good to include so people can hone their efficiency estimates for future recipes, if nothing else.
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Postby FrugalBrewer » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:22 pm

I think so.

Of course, any calc's are at best approximations. I mean unless you know the actual PPG yield of the specific batch of malt/grains/sugars you are using by doing your own congress mash and have labratory consistency..........

But again, everything we are doing with the software can be done manually. The point is to streamline/automate the number crunching and get as close to a realistic number as is possible with the info you have on hand.

I wouldnt think it would be difficult to implement. But, what do I know, I am just a bug.
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Here is an easy method to determine it with BTP

Postby billvelek » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:22 pm

Assuming you took hydrometer readings before and after fermentation, you can compare those readings with what BTP predicted; if your initial reading was different than BTP, adjust your 'Efficiency' setting until BTP's 'Original Extract' (original gravity) matches your first hydrometer reading, and then you will know what your extraction rate was for that batch. When the O.G. is correctly set, then adjust your 'Attenuation' setting until BTP's 'Terminal Extract' (final gravity) reading matches your last hydrometer reading.

I posted that suggestion in the documentation thread for inclusion in future improvements to the User's Guide. I can't see why it wouldn't be accurate, assuming that BTP is accurate to begin with.

Cheers.

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Postby just-cj » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:25 pm

There is a formula that I used to use at the local brewpub when I worked there to determine brewhouse efficiency based on potential extract and measured values for OG and volume. I don't remember it any more, but it should be easy to have BTP do that automatically for you instead of having to fiddle around manually.

The formula is also useful for adjusting efficiency based on the particular lot of malt you have now (if you don't have the malt analysis sheet).
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Re: Here is an easy method to determine it with BTP

Postby bzwrxbz » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:39 pm

billvelek wrote:Assuming you took hydrometer readings before and after fermentation, you can compare those readings with what BTP predicted; if your initial reading was different than BTP, adjust your 'Efficiency' setting until BTP's 'Original Extract' (original gravity) matches your first hydrometer reading, and then you will know what your extraction rate was for that batch. When the O.G. is correctly set, then adjust your 'Attenuation' setting until BTP's 'Terminal Extract' (final gravity) reading matches your last hydrometer reading.

Cheers.

Bill Velek


Is there something that I am missing here? I enter in the OG in the analysis tab, and the "Efficiency" number automatically changes for me. Then, I enter in the FG numbers in the analysis tab, and the "Attenuation" number then changes accordingly.

Why is it necessary to fiddle with the Attentuation and Efficiency numbers in BTP when all you have to do is set the hydrometer readings yourself and the numbers are calculated for you?

cheers!
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That's what BTP is doing, just-cj, when you enter actual OG

Postby billvelek » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:47 pm

just-cj wrote:There is a formula that I used to use at the local brewpub when I worked there to determine brewhouse efficiency based on potential extract and measured values for OG and volume. I don't remember it any more, but it should be easy to have BTP do that automatically for you instead of having to fiddle around manually.

The formula is also useful for adjusting efficiency based on the particular lot of malt you have now (if you don't have the malt analysis sheet).

Well, BTP has predicted the OG based on what you told it that your efficiency would be; it certainly knows the potential gravity and you tell it the final volume and OG and it then computes the exact percentage of efficiency. Isn't that the same thing?

Likewise with attenuation; it has estimated final gravity based upon what you told it that you thought your attenuation would be. Then when you take and enter your final gravity reading, it tells you exactly what your percent attenuation really was.

Cheers.

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Re: Here is an easy method to determine it with BTP

Postby billvelek » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:56 pm

bzwrxbz wrote:Is there something that I am missing here? I enter in the OG in the analysis tab, and the "Efficiency" number automatically changes for me. Then, I enter in the FG numbers in the analysis tab, and the "Attenuation" number then changes accordingly.

Why is it necessary to fiddle with the Attentuation and Efficiency numbers in BTP when all you have to do is set the hydrometer readings yourself and the numbers are calculated for you?

cheers!
That is even better; far easier. I missed doing it that way because I've only done it a couple of times and happened to have the 'style' tab selected when I did it rather than the 'analysis' tab; in other words, I'm still learning this myself, too. So you are absolutely correct and I'm glad you pointed that out. I'll change my suggestion in the documentation forum.

Thanks.

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Re: Here is an easy method to determine it with BTP

Postby bzwrxbz » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:04 pm

billvelek wrote:
bzwrxbz wrote:Is there something that I am missing here? I enter in the OG in the analysis tab, and the "Efficiency" number automatically changes for me. Then, I enter in the FG numbers in the analysis tab, and the "Attenuation" number then changes accordingly.

Why is it necessary to fiddle with the Attentuation and Efficiency numbers in BTP when all you have to do is set the hydrometer readings yourself and the numbers are calculated for you?

cheers!
That is even better; far easier. I missed doing it that way because I've only done it a couple of times and happened to have the 'style' tab selected when I did it rather than the 'analysis' tab; in other words, I'm still learning this myself, too. So you are absolutely correct and I'm glad you pointed that out. I'll change my suggestion in the documentation forum.

Thanks.

Bill Velek


Note of course that the OG entered is Post-Boil data, and that the Pre-Boil OG gets back calculated and you can check that by placing the cursor over the "Kettle Volume" text box.

cheers!
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Re: Here is an easy method to determine it with BTP

Postby billvelek » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:24 pm

bzwrxbz wrote:Snip ... Note of course that the OG entered is Post-Boil data, and that the Pre-Boil OG gets back calculated and you can check that by placing the cursor over the "Kettle Volume" text box.

cheers!
Yes, I see that now. Of course, I have never taken a gravity reading Pre-Boil. What do you do if the reading is not what you expected? Just curious. I guess it's possible to make a quick adjustment with DME or something like that. I have just never done it before.

Cheers.

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Postby jctull » Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:39 pm

I have done exactly that. If I am brewing a huge beer, efficiency tends to get whacked a bit, unless I do a really long boil (>>90 minutes), which I tend not to want to do. So I can make a DME adjustment if I want to based on that reading.

I will have to play with the program some more to figure out how efficiency is back-calculated. My other mac is at the office, and it has the software, so maybe tomorrow.
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Re: That's what BTP is doing, just-cj, when you enter actual

Postby just-cj » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:34 am

billvelek wrote:Well, BTP has predicted the OG based on what you told it that your efficiency would be; it certainly knows the potential gravity and you tell it the final volume and OG and it then computes the exact percentage of efficiency. Isn't that the same thing?
No, sorry for not being clear. I was talking about post-brewing for calculating actual brewhouse efficiency, not predictions or estimations. Maybe we're talking about the same thing or maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. I don't have the program in front of me, so I'm just imagining based on the posts above.
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Postby bzwrxbz » Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:41 am

jctull wrote:I have done exactly that. If I am brewing a huge beer, efficiency tends to get whacked a bit, unless I do a really long boil (>>90 minutes), which I tend not to want to do. So I can make a DME adjustment if I want to based on that reading.

I will have to play with the program some more to figure out how efficiency is back-calculated. My other mac is at the office, and it has the software, so maybe tomorrow.


So once you enter in your Post Boil OG, it will show you the Pre Boil OG and efficiency. This assumes that you have your preBoil and postBoil volumes accurately measured.
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