Strike Temp and MT Thermal Mass

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Strike Temp and MT Thermal Mass

Postby KenBoy » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:22 pm

On brew day I typically put hot mash water into an empty cold mash tun and throw the grain straight in. What I'd like is some help setting up a mash schedule to include a Mash In step that tells me what temperature the hot water has to be to result in the target strike and mash temps.

I can't seem to set it this up correctly using the mash tun vessel configuration and thermal calibration. The Mash In step always seems to give me a strike temp for water that has already temperature equalised with the mash tun (i.e for water already in the mash tun at strike temp).

As an example, for my 10 US Gal Rubbermaid mash tun at room temperature I'd start by putting in mash water at 79 degrees C. Next, after the temperatures of the mash water and mash tun have equalized to the strike temp of 73 degrees C I add the grain for a final mash temp of 66 degrees C.

So what I'm after is : -
X amount of water at Y degrees added to an empty mash tun at Z degrees will result in a strike temp of S and then a final mash temp of M.

Can this be done in BTP? Am I going about this the wrong way?
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Re: Strike Temp and MT Thermal Mass

Postby jeff » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:45 pm

KenBoy wrote:On brew day I typically put hot mash water into an empty cold mash tun and throw the grain straight in. What I'd like is some help setting up a mash schedule to include a Mash In step that tells me what temperature the hot water has to be to result in the target strike and mash temps.

I can't seem to set it this up correctly using the mash tun vessel configuration and thermal calibration. The Mash In step always seems to give me a strike temp for water that has already temperature equalised with the mash tun (i.e for water already in the mash tun at strike temp).

As an example, for my 10 US Gal Rubbermaid mash tun at room temperature I'd start by putting in mash water at 79 degrees C. Next, after the temperatures of the mash water and mash tun have equalized to the strike temp of 73 degrees C I add the grain for a final mash temp of 66 degrees C.

So what I'm after is : -
X amount of water at Y degrees added to an empty mash tun at Z degrees will result in a strike temp of S and then a final mash temp of M.

Can this be done in BTP? Am I going about this the wrong way?


The BeerTools Pro mash-in editor is incomplete in that it assumes that the mash vessel is the heating vessel. This is a known issue and will be resolved very soon. Sorry for the inconvenience. :(
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Postby KenBoy » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:51 pm

The BeerTools Pro mash-in editor is incomplete in that it assumes that the mash vessel is the heating vessel. This is a known issue and will be resolved very soon. Sorry for the inconvenience.


Hey no problem, thanks for the positive response.
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Re: Strike Temp and MT Thermal Mass

Postby kieran » Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:55 pm

jeff wrote:The BeerTools Pro mash-in editor is incomplete in that it assumes that the mash vessel is the heating vessel. This is a known issue and will be resolved very soon. Sorry for the inconvenience. :(


Heh, me and my mate doing an AG last weekend worked that out the hard way! :)
We mash in an esky.. it was quite difficult to plan the schedule without having a calculated temp-drop over mash time. We just guessed and shoe-horned it in.
Anyway, we got a great mash efficiency.. upwards of 80% which is good for us. :)
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Postby bemert » Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:51 pm

I found this out the hard way - calibrated my vessel (rectangular cooler) per the directions. Did my very first AG batch this weekend, raised the strike temp to what BTP called for, and my temp dropped 25F in 10 minutes. Had to quickly boil water to get back up to mash temp, everything held fine after another 3 gallon addition of 200+f water. That sucked!

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Mash-in

Postby jeff » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:04 pm

bemert wrote:I found this out the hard way - calibrated my vessel (rectangular cooler) per the directions. Did my very first AG batch this weekend, raised the strike temp to what BTP called for, and my temp dropped 25F in 10 minutes. Had to quickly boil water to get back up to mash temp, everything held fine after another 3 gallon addition of 200+f water. That sucked!

Brian


I guess I'm not your favorite person right now. :cry: Sorry about the mishap; version 1.0.4 (which is very close) is configurable for separate heating and mashing vessels during the mash in step. One thing to note however: when you let the mash rest after mash-in, use a "Rest" to calculate heat loss over time. The "Equalize" box should not be used to contain the duration of the acid, protein or sacc. rest. My apologies.
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Re: Mash-in

Postby bemert » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:19 pm

jeff wrote:
bemert wrote:I found this out the hard way - calibrated my vessel (rectangular cooler) per the directions. Did my very first AG batch this weekend, raised the strike temp to what BTP called for, and my temp dropped 25F in 10 minutes. Had to quickly boil water to get back up to mash temp, everything held fine after another 3 gallon addition of 200+f water. That sucked!

Brian


I guess I'm not your favorite person right now. :cry: Sorry about the mishap; version 1.0.4 (which is very close) is configurable for separate heating and mashing vessels during the mash in step. One thing to note however: when you let the mash rest after mash-in, use a "Rest" to calculate heat loss over time. The "Equalize" box should not be used to contain the duration of the acid, protein or sacc. rest. My apologies.


No worries - it still made beer, and I have bigger issues than that one - missed my OG by 10pts. Got to figure that one out first. I can play with strike temps and get that corrected. A friend used another calculator and came up with a strike temp 20f higher than BTP, that would have worked in this case, but if it is fixed in the next update then all is well! I am too green on AG to blame anything else but my ignorance.

One thing I have not found is how to record actual values during the brew day such as Pro Mash has in their session, have I missed that or is it a feature in future releases?
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Re: Mash-in

Postby jeff » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:37 pm

bemert wrote:No worries - it still made beer, and I have bigger issues than that one - missed my OG by 10pts. Got to figure that one out first. I can play with strike temps and get that corrected. A friend used another calculator and came up with a strike temp 20f higher than BTP, that would have worked in this case, but if it is fixed in the next update then all is well! I am too green on AG to blame anything else but my ignorance.


Thanks for being easy on me. If you could follow up on this topic after BTP 1.0.4 is released and let me know if the predicted values come in closer to the actual results. There may still be some things that need to be dialed in on the BTP end too.

bemert wrote:One thing I have not found is how to record actual values during the brew day such as Pro Mash has in their session, have I missed that or is it a feature in future releases?


Session recording is planned; so is session "run". :wink:
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Version 1.0.4

Postby jeff » Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:45 pm

The Mash-In step can now be configured with a "Heating" vessel and a "Mashing" vessel. This allows for picnic cooler type mashing setups. If no heating vessel is selected, then it is assumed that the mashing vessel is used for heating the strike water. This is also the assumption when the heating and mashing vessels selected are the same. If the heating vessel is different from the mashing vessel, BTP calculates the effect of the heat capacity of the cool mashing vessel on the strike water.

These updates are now available in version 1.0.4.
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Re: Version 1.0.4

Postby kieran » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:34 am

jeff wrote:The Mash-In step can now be configured with a "Heating" vessel and a "Mashing" vessel. This allows for picnic cooler type mashing setups. If no heating vessel is selected, then it is assumed that the mashing vessel is used for heating the strike water. This is also the assumption when the heating and mashing vessels selected are the same. If the heating vessel is different from the mashing vessel, BTP calculates the effect of the heat capacity of the cool mashing vessel on the strike water.

These updates are now available in version 1.0.4.


Hey Jeff,

I don't know if I've missed something, but I'm using 1.0.4, and even with the separate mash vessel, it isnt heating the strike water.. its just holding it with the mash.. The water is heated elsewhere - kitchen, burner, kettle, etc. it can just be assumed its going to go in at a specific temperature, instantaneously. The only thing I can think of is adding them as infusions.. but how to work that in, I'm not sure.
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Re: Version 1.0.4

Postby jeff » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:55 am

kieran wrote:Hey Jeff,

I don't know if I've missed something, but I'm using 1.0.4, and even with the separate mash vessel, it isnt heating the strike water.. its just holding it with the mash.. The water is heated elsewhere - kitchen, burner, kettle, etc. it can just be assumed its going to go in at a specific temperature, instantaneously. The only thing I can think of is adding them as infusions.. but how to work that in, I'm not sure.


You should still use the mash-in step. The heat source and heating vessel should be whatever you use to heat the infusion you put in your mash tun. The time it takes to heat your strike water is calculated by the mash-in step, and the equalize box should be set to how long it takes for the temperature to stabilize when combining the strike water and the grain.
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